217: Bravely Default w/ Wes

Hello and welcome back to another episode of The Backlog Breakdown, a video game podcast where we seek to encourage and equip the church to engage the medium wisely and responsibly. I am one of your hosts, Nate, and with me today is my co-host, my friend, my brother in Christ, Joshua. Hey, Josh.

Howdy there.

And you know what? Well, sorry, didn't mean to step on you there, but also I'm not nearly as excited to talk to you as I am to, to talk to our guest. It's It's been a minute, brother. And I know that, uh, you know, on the, the most recent episode of the phone call, there was a lot of battering and a lot of abuse. We just had to, I, you know, and so this time we're gonna make it, it's like a little, I don't know, we're gonna make it a little uneven. So it's like, hopefully you feel better about being on this, but it's good to have you on, Wesley Ray, the Henshin Dad himself.

Thank you. Thank you.

Welcome to the new and improved Backlog Breakdown.

Oh yeah, this is the new and improved one. Okay. Yeah, because the last time I was here, we were talking about Pokémon. So the old stuff's been a while. No, no. Good one. Good one. Such a good one. 1.0. I'm a 1.0 user of the backlog breakdown. Hmm.

Yeah, but yeah, man, you have been a longtime friend and collaborator and, um, yeah, it's good to have you on here, man. But, um, I think We probably ought to just kind of jump right into it. Oh, I mean, I guess I, like I said, I did sort of step on you in the intro, Josh, but, um, did you have anything important to say?

No, I just, I just said hi. I just said howdy there, folks.

You were, you were too slow. You were too slow.

Good.

He was trying to, trying to channel his inner Texan. You just had to step right on that. Goodness. Well, remember the Alamo, Nate? Remember the Alamo?

Don't forget it. Uh, how could you? Those men died, Nate.

Cool story, bro.

It happened to Texas, which cowboys are from.

Neat.

Um, yeah.

Yeah, I got nothing. I got nothing. But, um, we are a video game podcast, so let's get into some backlog report action. And Wes, since it has been— well, it's been—

oh, yes, it has been.

It's been—

sorry, I'm used to doing that in the phone calls now. I'm not prepped for it in our main episode.

Well, and I didn't sing it either. I didn't go, it's been—

that's true. That's true.

I just kind of said, it's been, and then waited. I left the pregnant pause. And you delivered.

Hey, I like that wordplay. That was great.

I hate myself now.

That was beautiful.

Um, this must be incredibly painful.

Thank you.

It's a late delivery. I was about to say, a little slow on that trigger, Josh. Come on.

But Wes, it has been a minute since you've been back on, but what have you, uh, Well, do you have any backlog report action to report or to comment on?

Definitely not. I have not been gaming for like an entire year now because I've been working on my master's degree. But if that counts, I finished stupid classes, a bunch of stupid classes. I mean, not stupid classes. They were very intellectual and they taught me a lot. And I can't wait to graduate with my master's degree next May sometime, hopefully. To be a master. That's right. That's right. Yeah, I can now say I'm a Pokémon master.

Would you not be a master of the universe?

No, definitely not of the universe, but that's too big. I can't handle that. Hmm.

Just talk about monsters. What would you be a master of? Disaster?

Uh, yes, very much so. Because if you saw my classroom today, you would be like, wow, how's this guy been teaching for almost 15 years now? This is crazy. Nice.

I mean. You're, yeah, I mean, you're still doing it, so you must be doing okay, pal.

But by the skin of my teeth, that's pretty much it. So no, no, I haven't really been playing anything except for just recently, which is Kingdom Hearts, which I know how much Josh is a fan of the Kingdom Hearts. So, you know, I, I think I'll just leave it up to him to talk about that.

Love them. All the, the, the hearts in the very, in the many kingdoms.

Yeah.

All of the hearts and all of their various and myriad meanings.

The chains, their memories, their days, their birth by sleeps.

I did actually like that one. Um, Chain of Memories.

Is that the card one?

Yep. Yep.

I did like that one. I have not played the remake of that one.

Yeah.

I only played it on the original hardware on Advance. Game Boy Advance.

The Game Boy Advance one is really fun. Honestly, the sprite work is fantastic. So good. And they fit the entire theme song on it.

It was great.

I don't know how they did that.

I don't recall. I don't recall that. Uh, oh, you know what?

You have to beat the game to see it.

I did beat it.

Yeah. You have to watch the credits.

I've heard another game in the Kingdom Hearts series is really good. And that is the, um, Memory of Melody. Oh, that's a rhythm game.

That is really fun, actually.

I haven't played that one, but I've heard it's good. So, because there's another game that came out with a rhythm minigame inside of it that we'll be talking about here in just a little bit. So, I don't—

fun times.

Lots of allusions to things yet to come.

Foreshadowing.

Yes.

If you do that at the beginning of the episode, then it all comes together by the end.

Dude, I'm really cool concept. Still devastated by my My incredibly tasteless faux pas, but it also says like, dude, I've actually kind of like you brought up like you put in the show notes that you've been playing things on your Ain Thor.

That's right. I just picked it up.

Tell me about this thing because like this is not the first time I've.

It just looks beautiful.

You can see the screens. It's so cool. I got my Dragon Quest Eight on here. It basically plays everything up to Switch if you want to. It's it's just an emulation device. It's really fun. But the selling point is that it has 2 screens. So like, you know, for any regular game you can play like on the top screen, then you can like watch a TV show on the bottom screen at the same time. That's kind of cool. I watched a little Star Trek that way while I was playing Pokémon, but then it can also emulate 3DS games and DS games. Obviously only the ones that you backed up legally on your own, of course, with original hardware. Yeah.

Oh, definitely.

Definitely.

But like, yeah, I got, I got Dragon Quest VIII there.

Chrono Trigger with a cool little, like, you know, illustration right there. It's really fun. Yeah. Mm. Lots of stuff.

That's actually kind of sick. Which, which version of Chrono Trigger is that? Is that the DS?

That is the DS version. Yeah. Link Between Worlds, you know, going along the Zelda theme for the Zelda episode I missed, you know, it's there too.

Yeah, man.

So I've just been falling asleep playing a little bit every night. You know, I played a little bit of For the Frog the Bell Tolls. That's been, that's been fun. Fun to play again. Uh, but yeah, mostly just Kingdom Hearts. We finished up Kingdom Hearts 1. It was really hard. Beat it in about 13 hours. Started up Kingdom Hearts 2. I was instantly like, oh my gosh, this is like 20 times better.

Yeah.

Than the original Kingdom Hearts. Everything just moves smoothly. You got these little action commands. It's so much more fun. It's, it's great. It's so fun. So I'm looking forward to going through that. Then Kingdom Hearts 3, when we're done with that. Well, pretty much all the other games in between as well. But yeah, there's going to be big news on Kingdom Hearts 4 coming out August 15th. You'll probably already know it by the time you listen to this, listener, because I'm talking to the listener, not you guys, because I know you guys don't really care about it. But to the listener, obviously Kingdom Hearts 4 news right around the corner. Pay attention. It's really good. They'll probably have Frozen again in his world. It's great. You know, you can listen to Let It Go.

That is a bit, that is a bit of a, that's a nice tune.

Like, uh, it's even funnier when you see Donald and Goofy reacting to it. Like, who's that singing? What's going on? Why is there a snowstorm all of a sudden? Yeah, it's actually pretty funny.

The woman who sings Let It Go, she's like a famous Broadway performer.

Idina Menzel. Yes. Don't ask me how I know that. I don't know anything about Broadway.

Shh, dude. No, it's like, listen, you have a wife. We're gonna assume that you're engaging in completely hetero Yeah.

Yes. Heteronormative musical watching.

Like, listen, I don't know, man. Like, I feel like that's not a ground that I'm willing to cede to, to like, like culture war nonsense. Like some musicals are bad and stupid and like absolutely nobody should watch. But like, dude, Phantom is, is a rip, dude. Les Mis is a rip. Like, we need to just be like, no, these things kind of rule. Like, it's okay to just like, some of them are just bad and stupid, but like, some of it's like kind of epic and cool.

Like Newsies. Have you guys ever seen the Broadway version of Newsies? It's so good.

Nah, man. I mean, I saw the Disney film, whatever, and that was pretty cool. I went and saw Wicked with Megan. It wasn't like, it wasn't like the original run, but it was like, it was pretty cool. Like, like there's like a, there's a lot of like really like cool like craft and stuff like just there where it's like, yeah. And like they're like, these people are pretty like wildly talented vocalists.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like just even like the people who are like off, off, off Broadway. Are just amazing vocalists. So, but yeah.

So yeah, musicals very much endorsed by the backlog breakdown. Heteronormative musical watching, but only the cool ones. Yes, yes.

Yeah, yeah.

So, well, yeah, that's pretty cool, man. I'll, you know, at some point in time I might like, you know, like pick your brains a little bit on that, Ain't Thor, because like I mean, I still have my 3DS and it's like cool, but it's like, there is like kind of like the hardware failure, like backup kind of situation, like stuff that I'm thinking about every once in a while.

So. Well, and just being able to play 3DS games at like super, super high resolutions. Like I loaded up Dragon Quest VIII and I put it at like whatever it is, 4 times the resolution. And it is like crisp and beautiful. It feels like even better than the PS2 version. It's so fancy looking. I love it. And the screens are so bright. They just like pop out at you. It's so good. Love it.

Yeah, that one's AMOLED, isn't it?

AMOLED screens? Uh, yes. Yes, I believe so.

Oh man.

Oh dude.

It's like you even see in like the YouTube videos, like when people are playing it, it's just like, are they like overlaying the screen on the device? No, that's just how it looks. No, it's that clear. It's amazing.

Dude, they, dude, I'm looking at the batch 7 preorders right now. And that's like, that's really Can you use— is it all just like flash drive stick memory kind of stuff, or do they actually have DS cartridges?

Like, you cannot put actual cartridges in there now, just a microSD card.

Okay.

Mine was part of the batch 5 preorders, which was the last one that had a specific type of— I think it was a RAM chip of some sort. No, a storage chip with like a certain speed. I don't really know any of the computer stuff. like the UFS 3.0 versus the 2.0. I don't know what that means, but it's supposed to have like really high file speeds. All the computer people are just weeping at my explanation of it, but I would say it's well worth the money. I paid about $400 for mine with like the shipping and all the extra accessories that I bought with it, because like I had to get a nice little case on it. Uh, probably could have used either the, uh, the Pro or the Max, but this has been totally fine with me. I'm not going to try to play like Switch games or Xbox One games on it at all. So, or any like high, high-end Steam games, although it does connect to Steam pretty flawlessly. That was surprising to me.

That's cool.

I'm looking at the Mac 16 with the 512 gig. It's only $479, which like, that's, that's not, I mean, that's not nothing, but like for the kit you're getting, that's pretty—

Yeah. Anyways, but then you have to pay like $50 on top of that for the shipping and then the item protection and any accessories if you want a case on it. Or grip so it fits in your hands better.

Yeah.

Yeah, it does. They do nickel and dime you a little bit, but it's so fun.

I love it.

Like, it took a while to get like tinkered with and make it actually like work to how I want it, but it's so cool. You might even say it has a really pleasing aesthetic. Very sincerely.

Don't start again. Like, I was, I was feeling pretty nice and I was glad to talk to you and Don't ruin it. Don't ruin this. Just— but Josh, how about you? What do you have as far as the backlog report goes?

Yeah, just, just in terms of reporting on stuff, my, my score has not changed because I, I haven't picked anything up, you know, borrowing stuff here and there from the library, but not really, not, not really intending to get very far with any of that stuff. Um, still waiting for, uh, It's— I haven't put it on hold, so I'm not like actually waiting for it. But Star Fox, I know that my library has a copy, but it's been checked out, you know, since, since release. So I haven't gotten a chance to check that one out. I think I've said it before, but every time I go through the Switch 2 games, Resident Evil Requiem is there. I'm like, man, if I could just get through my Locked and Loaded list, like That's probably— that's— it's, it's very tempting. Although I say that, there's also been, uh, do they have Hades 2? No, maybe they don't. I can't remember if they have Hades 2 or not, but they also have, um— oh, we were just talking on the, on the phone call about, uh, Metroid Dread. They've got that one too. So anyways, there's a handful of games that my library has that I'm like, yeah, I never got around to picking up a copy of that and Um, but that's neither here nor there. I have not actually finished anything, uh, in quite a while. So score still remains at -6, just playing some stuff here and there. I will say though, uh, not to, not to spoil anything we'll talk about later, but from the bit of Bravely Default HD that I've been playing, uh, that's also kind of like, I, I, I'm not gonna finish it right now because I'm playing Octopath Traveler 2. But man, do I want to replay it this year? Because, because I, uh, I really like this game. So anyways, still at negative 6 for my backlog report. Um, how about you, Nate?

Um, let me pull up my notes here. I was like checking a couple other things. I know, much radio, much good.

Wow.

Um, yeah. So like we talked about playing Diablo 4, And I actually did beat the DLC Lord of Hatred.

Okay.

So that gets me -1, uh, takes me down to 0. So I'm sitting at the goose egg again. And Diablo 4, it's like, you know, and we talked about on the phone call, so I don't want to reiterate, but it's just like, that's just like my vibes game. It's like, I, I just want to play something. I don't want to think too hard. I don't want to engage. Like, it's just like, yeah, it's the Rube Goldberg machine. I build the thing, And I just like, I watch, you know, I watch, uh, monsters explode and then I loot their corpses. It's very, very satisfying sort of loop.

Um, that would make such a cool Ultraman game with that kind of gameplay loop. That'd be so cool. Just throwing that out there.

That would kind of—

kills monsters, loots the corpses. Probably in hell.

Like, yeah, or space, or just—

Or space.

Downtown Tokyo.

Um, perfect.

Yeah, actually, that would be kind of fun. Anyways, yes, let's, um, staying on tack, uh, on track here. Uh, Returnal, Tunic, I just kind of like been noodling around with those. But also, I, um, you know, and we talked about it again on the phone call, so I'm not gonna go too, too into, but I started playing Radiant Historia: A Perfect Chronology on my 3DS. And, uh, yeah, that's kind of scratching a really kind of like a little bit of a nostalgia kind of itch. It's really pretty great, uh, so far. So yeah. Um, but yeah, and I, I had played the, you know, through some of the Bravely Default, uh, Default remaster, you know, earlier this year, and I kind of, I kind of fell off, and we can talk about that here in a little bit. But, um, yeah, my Beatdown score is still zero, or is at zero again. And, uh, yeah, if you guys are sort of saying, hey, what's the deal with these numbers that you guys are talking about? Well, this is your first time listening. Welcome to the show. But we run a meta all year long, and some people participate and some people don't. But it's basically, it's a tool that's meant to incentivize you to prioritize playing the games that you already own and to act as a bit of a mitigating factor in regards to acquisition. The rules are pretty much like negative points for beating games, positive points for picking up games. And so you want to keep your score as low as possible, if not even going to the negatives. It's a little more nuanced than that, but not by much. And if that sounds at all interesting to you, reach out to one, you know, toss, you know, join our Discord. It's, it's pinned in the Backlog Beatdown, uh, 2026 channel. But yeah, um, so anyways, that's what that's about. But without any more sort of dragging our heels or anything, let's just kind of get into it. Wes, you are a patron. This is your patron pick. Um, and you are sort of in a privileged position. You are sort of part of an elite class of of patron.

Very elite.

Um, you, you, uh, you pretty much have a situation where like whatever you nominate kind of gets played most of the time.

That's right. Um, so I like to throw my weight around a little bit, which is pretty easy because I have a lot to go around. So, you know, I get it.

Yeah. And, uh, when you, when you sort of move in your seat, we feel it over here on the East Coast.

Exactly.

Hey, I'm back to floor sitting again. So, you know, I'm moving around a lot. So hopefully that's not too distracting. Floor sitting is really good for you. Everybody look it up. It's super healthy. Yeah.

I, but anyway, Bravely Default, it's not the first time I've, I've heard that. At some point in time, I would be interested to hear more.

Um, of course, of course.

Yeah. Um, yeah, we're here to talk about Bravely Default, Flying Fairy. HD, the, the remaster, um, specifically is like, you know, we kind of all— and I— well, and just to sort of like lay up a little bit of context for this, it's like this is a game that I think all 3 of us enjoy, you know, a lot. Um, I think in the years since I first played it, I still have a lot of admiration for it, but it's like I do like some of my affections have cooled. It's still a great game.

Yeah.

And we'll talk about some of the reasons why I'm kind of like, I've cooled on that. But one of the reasons we didn't really put it on this list is that, or that it hasn't really come up like a whole lot, is because of the fact that it's basically, it is a game that was prior to this, pretty much on like the, the 3DS was still alive when we were originally recording, but it's like, it was kind of like dying hardware. And so it's like one of those things with it being brought forward into the Switch generation, it's actually a little more accessible. And so it's kind of like, it's a, it's an issue of an accessibility thing. Um, but also it just kind of felt like with that, it kind of felt like it was time to sort of like have the conversation. So Josh, I kind of, you know, I'm going to sort of, you know, steal some of your notes here.

Absolutely.

We're going to ask the question, but why though? And sort of looking at the back of the box here, what is a Bravely Default and why is it Final Fantasy?

Yeah. So the first question though, Wes, and Nate, you've pretty much kind of answered it, but Why? Why this game? Why would you do that? But why though?

Why would I choose this game?

Why Bravely Default?

Yeah. Okay, so here's the thing. Like, I really like this game. This game came out at a very, very, like, important part of my life on the original 3DS. So, you know, backing up a little bit in the grand old times of 2014, you know, back when we were all little babies, you know, just kind of hanging out, doing our own, like, you know, well, I think Nate was probably in his 30s at that point, but, you know, Josh and I, we were in our 20s, right? You know, mid-20s, kind of figuring out life and everything.

And so, I mean, to be fair, I, I was in my 30s, but I was still figuring out life.

Okay. And as I am in my 30s now, in my late 30s now, specifically, I'm still trying to figure that out as well. So.

He does not change. Yes, it's kind of a constant process.

Just get more responsibility. It's awesome.

Yeah, exactly. But no more of the wisdom, honestly. But anyway, why Bravely Default? It's such a good game. Okay. Because, okay, back in 2014, this game came out like right when I was coming back from Korea working on my teacher credential. During that 6 months of time, my wife decided that she was going to go like stay with her family while I was getting everything done with my family. down in Southern California. So she was up in Oregon, I was down in Southern California. So we were like, not like, you know, with each other for like 5 or 6 months. And it was, it was a pretty hard time, you know, it was pretty lonely. And, but I basically had to work like 24/7 on all my credential stuff. So there was not much I could do about that. It was like, I wasn't going to be home at a regular time or anything. But anytime I did have some free time, I had this little game. I think it came out in February 2014. I remember seeing it on the shelf Of Kmart back when that was still a thing. And I was just like, oh, I need that game because I saw it so many times when I was in Korea. Like they had these like import gaming stalls in Korea where they had a bunch of Japanese games. And I was very tempted at like to buy an actual like Japanese 3DS at the time with a copy of Bravely Default because I'd heard so many good things like, oh, it's like a Final Fantasy game, but not exactly a Final Fantasy game. It's supposed to be a lot darker than a Final Fantasy game. Of course, I hadn't played much Final Fantasy at that time, so I'm just like, okay, sure, it sounds great. But I never picked it up at that point. But then they announced that it was going to come to America. So I figured, okay, this is my chance. I'm going to go all in on this game. It looks amazing. Love the aesthetic, love Final Fantasy, at least the ones I had played at that time. And I sunk probably like, other than like Pokémon, I think, and like Smash Brothers, I think this is like the game I sunk the most time in. I can't ever remember getting up into like the 80s or 90s or 100s in like a JRPG, like hour count before. But that's what I did for this game. It was so meaningful to me at the time because it was like my only like comfort food when I was basically living in hell for like 6 months trying to get this credential work done. So for me, it was, it came out at a very pivotal time. And while I do understand a lot of the criticisms of it, And while I might share some of those criticisms, I think those criticisms are a bit overblown when you look back at it in hindsight. And that's why I wanted to explore it, you know, using our modern lens of games that have come out in the last 12 years. So I thought it would be good to look at that now that it's been made available in not just on the Switch 2, but I think it's also on Steam as well. So it's like really making a very, very wide impact and people are discovering the game for the first time, even though it's been out forever. So. Kind of looking at some of those reviews recently has been interesting to see the different opinions that they had. So that's why I chose it. Awesome.

Nice, nice. Well, you know, Nate, Nate mentioned how we, we generally tend to play the games that you recommend, the games that you pick as a, as a patron. I think part of that is because Well, I was gonna say you just pick really good games, but I think— Especially dancing games. That's right. Oh my goodness, those were patron picks, weren't they? That's crazy to think about, um, back when we played, uh, Persona 3 and 5 dancing. Um, anyways, I, I do think it's not just that, oh yeah, you've got great taste in video games, which I think That's definitely part of that. But I do think you are also very conscious of the games that you pick because you want to have conversations about them and you think that we'll be able to, you know, provide that as well. So I, I think it's a, it's a mutual kind of understanding of like, sure, you push a little bit, but, um, I'm excited to talk about Bravely Default because, yeah, it's— well, we'll talk about why. Um, but I, I very much enjoy this game as well. Um, so just a couple back of the box things you were talking about when it was first released. Okay. Um, and that was, you know, it was a 3DS exclusive. What was it? 20— I thought it was '14. 2012 is what Wikipedia is showing me.

That's the Japanese release.

That's the Japanese. Okay, cool. And that makes sense because there's a lot of text. In this game. So there's translation work, and it was fully voice acted too, um, on the 3DS, which I, I say fully, okay, there are certain conversations throughout the game that don't have voice acting, but all the cutscenes, put it that way, are fully voice acted. So, um, man, oh man. So technically, it's, it's just fun to throw these things out there. Bravely Default Flying Fairy HD is what, the 3rd version or 4th version of the game? I'm trying to think. Uh, 'cause there was the original Japanese release. And then they re-released the game, they updated it and re-released it for the sequel, is what they subtitled that in Japan. That's the version that we got here in America. So that's the one that we've played. But that was— was it on the cusp of Bravely Second and Layer? Or was it after Bravely Second came out? I think it was before, wasn't it? Right before?

I'm pretty sure before, yeah. I don't think the second game had come out in Japan at that point, but they were gearing up for it.

Yes. Yeah. So they were working on the second game, but they updated the first game and, and with things that were more akin to the second game. So here in America, we got Bravely Default. Where the Fairy Flies. And then we got Bravely Second: End Layer, and they play very similarly. There's obviously some difference— different, totally different jobs, you know, between the games. But there are lots of similarities where, uh, originally in Japan there were much more differences before that kind of sequel version— not the sequel version, but the re-released version, the updated version.

Mm-hmm.

The Definitive Edition. Which is no longer definitive because now there's Bravely Default: Flying Fairy HD Remaster, which is available. And like I said, I didn't even know that it was on Steam as well. So Switch 2, Windows, Xbox apparently as well.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, so you can play this game a bunch of different places, which is just a joy to my heart because this game does so many things well. I'll put it that way. Instead of focusing on the negatives, you know, like some people might like to do, um, it just does so many things really well. So, uh, I think that's all that I want to say about back— um, well, no, sorry. Something else that I'll just interject here. I'm trying to— I'm looking for the name of the studio in particular. Um, Silicon Studio is what it says on Wikipedia, but I'm pretty sure there's a name, uh, that started with an A, like Aramis or something like that. I don't remember what it was. But basically the team who worked on this game previously worked on the Final Fantasy IV Heroes of Light for, uh, was that also 3DS or was it just DS? That's a DS game.

That was DS.

That's just a DS game. Um, and then they will go on to this, this studio will on to create the Octopath Traveler series. So there's, there's this, uh, I would— there's a progression, at least within time, of these different things that they've worked on that are— that have a lot of similarities mechanically, thematically. Um, they all have a similar kind of tone and heart to them. Uh, and I say all that, I've never actually played Four Warriors of Light. I own it. It's in the basement, but I've never actually played it. Um, and currently playing Octopath Traveler 2. So, uh, there are definitely some, some big holes, some gaps in my own experience with these games, but I hold this game in high regard. I hold Octopath in high regard. Um, oh, and they also—

Which is also controversial, honestly. Octopath has a lot of controversy around it. So I just like to court controversy.

Yes, yes, I suppose so. They like to make flawed masterpieces.

Mm-hmm.

Um, yeah, and that, that's definitely something that, that, uh, we can get into in a second. Well, typically with these kinds of, uh, episodes where we focus on a certain game, uh, after kind of explaining what the game is, which I guess we, we still haven't done yet, um, this game's JRPG, right? Um, did we mention that? Did we mention anything about, um, what this is? So I think actually in mentioning that it comes from Four Warriors of Light, this, this Final Fantasy spinoff, is to me, this game really has the heart of a Final Fantasy game. It is a turn-based JRPG that came out in a time where they were not quite as abundant as they are nowadays. And, and it hearkened back to some of the simplicity of the old school Final Fantasy games, but adding its own flavor. There's a lot of Final Fantasy in this game, but the Brave and Default system that you can use really adds an element of strategy that allows you to both kind of break open the game in many different ways. Or, hey, if you don't even go that deep with it, it's, it's still just a lot of fun to play around with.

So.

Oh, Nate, you muted yourself, dude. I can't hear you at all.

I was drinking water.

Gotcha.

I didn't want to. I do think that the Brave and the default system can be understated. can't be understated. Like, I think this is one of the more interesting— like, it, it's one of those things where it does sort of like, it does break from the— it borrows a lot from Final Fantasy, and there's a lot of Final Fantasy DNA in it, uh, in a lot of ways. But I think that the Brave and Default, like, technically under the hood, as far as like just systems go, I think that Bravely Default is, you know, arguably one of the most ambitious games, you know, outside of like the Final Fantasy XII and XIII and all that stuff. Like, but it's like just in the sense, like, it doesn't— it stays kind of within those systems, but explores them in, in really interesting ways. It kind of reminds me actually a lot of like, um, I remember when I played Bravely Default for the first time, it kind of recontextualized turn-based JRPGs for me, and it added like a level of tactical sort of— it just made it much more strategic, much more tactical, much more intentional. And it sort of, it does add this like, this kind of almost like risk-reward system that actually is really satisfying. I also think you pair that with the fact that you have the job systems and it's a pretty rich kind of thing there where it's not just, it's again, it's kind of borrowing from maybe like Final Fantasy V, but it's also, it's turning the volume up on that in really significant ways because it It's a really, really well-fleshed-out job system where it's like you can have the jobs and instead of just like maybe borrowing like snippets, you can kind of just create like almost like hybrid custom classes. That is really like the— this is like a game where it's like actually build crafting is a pretty— like more so than any other Final Fantasy.

Yeah.

Um, as a general rule, like build crafting actually really matters here. Like, and so I think that it's, it's one of those things that, yeah, it's, it, it represents actually a really meaningful evolution of like the genre that just kind of, it does get echoed, you know, it gets echoed in, in End Layer and Bravely Default 2 and Octopath. But it's really unfortunate because like, I, I think there's just some like mechanically, I think this is a, a pretty stinking, it's a, it's a great system. It's like, it's probably the best turn-based system Square Enix has ever—

yeah. Mm-hmm.

I mean, there's a reason why they're using it in In Octopath now.

Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, there's, there's more of a heavy emphasis. It's funny coming from Octopath and playing a bit, going back to this game is because there is more of a heavy emphasis of the jobs. You are switching out jobs a lot more, whereas Octopath, you have kind of set characters that have certain jobs that you can add to and augment. their abilities and carry over certain things so that it does give you a lot of customization. But this one is far and away much more based around, hey, you know, these characters are blank slates in terms of, in terms of abilities, not in terms of actual characters within the game.

Kind of.

You give them jobs.

Kind of. There are— it's very like it's, it's almost negligible. To sense, but like each character actually does have preferences stat-wise.

Okay.

Like, okay, yeah, is like, I think she is more defensively oriented, like, or maybe no, maybe she's offense, but like each one actually does, like each character does prioritize certain stats. Okay. Like Agnes, obviously, like magic and stuff.

Gotcha.

Yeah, but it's, it's, it's like maybe, maybe 10 stat points total difference between all of them. It's not anything super significant.

Okay, nice.

Okay.

Um, Wes, you shared your previous experience with the game. Um, I played through it on 3DS. I, I honestly don't remember when, but I do remember loving the game. By and large, there's a chunk of the game that is, um, that is notorious within this game. I don't want to get into spoilers, so I don't want to get there yet. Um, but even playing through it on 3DS, it was— there's a slog area in this game. Um, outside of that, loved the game. And, and again, I don't remember when I enjoyed it so much that I want to say within 6 months I picked up and started playing the second game as well. So I know I played the games not exactly back to back, but within a short span of time because I enjoyed it. Both great games. I think the first one does get the edge for me, but Yeah, yeah, love these games. Uh, Nate, what has been your experience with the game?

Uh, it— this is, is something that like I remember, I don't think I got it right when it came out. Um, but it's, it's kind of like there's like a little bit of a convoluted story here, but like Megan had gotten me a 3DS, sort of like she had picked it up. Like my wife is really good at like finding like deals, and so she bought this, like, really great condition, but like a used 3DS. And so I was like, oh, like, hey, I want, uh, but it was like one of the old ones, like the, the tiny little like clamshell guys. And anyways, so I was like, I got Bravely Default for that and I was playing it on that. And then I was just like, God, I actually like shortly into that, I was like, I need the full-fledged, like I need the big new 3DS. And so, but yeah, so there was like, there was a little bit of consternation. My wife was like, I just got you this thing. And I was like, but I need the big one. You know, it's like, so it was, it was one of those things where it was fairly early on in our marriage and it was just like, yeah, I just kind of like, I would play it going to sleep. kind of thing, you know? And, uh, and for me, it's like, as, as a fan of— I was aware of like the sort of the campaign to bring this. This was like one of the games like alongside Xenoblade Chronicles where people were like campaigning to bring this. It was like similar to that where like there was sort of— people saw this, heard about this, and they were like, oh no, bring it over to the States. And there was a pretty massive like online Like Facebook campaign to sort of like encourage Square Enix to bring it stateside. Um, and so I remember those things very distinctly. Um, but yeah, and as somebody who just really always liked the job system in Final Fantasy V, um, and, and Tactics to a certain, like Tactics is very, like has a pretty comparable system as, like, I always liked that. I always wanted to see the Final Fantasy games really embrace that. This was just like I said, this is sort of like this kind of like opened, opened the door to like really sort of getting into build crafting the way that I, I do. Like, that's kind of like, that's one of my primary gears now where it's like, I just, I like, let me build the, like, the crazy machine. And so yeah, it was just a— And yeah, I really did. I I maxed out that game. Like, my file is like level 99, all the jobs, like all the job levels maxed out, like, like an actual psychopath. Um, including the vampire, like all the skills. Like, I, yeah, I went just like, um, Like when I get in that completionist rut, I go hard.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and so this is a game that like I have a, I have a file on my 3DS that's, it's 100% completion. Like I've done everything in that game and it's, uh, I don't know. I think it's a pretty special game. It's, it's the, I think that like the qualification, like it's a flawed masterpiece. Like, um, It's something that means a lot to me, but actually, like, and I guess sort of like when we get into the spoiler territory or whatever, I'll talk about like, I think, you know, you're talking about like there's a fairly significant chunk where like it kind of— and I feel like that degrades the experience. Like that section of the game actually degrades the experience for me enough, especially on the revisit. Because like that was actually Like when, when I hit that part, like that's kind of where I dipped out because I was like, I'm, I'm not doing this again, you know. But, and we can talk about that, you know, I guess as soon as we sort of blow the spoiler horn. Spoiler horn. I wish I could talk. So, but, but yeah, I mean, that's, that's it. Like we got it and it was just like one of those games where I really, I think it's charming. I actually, I think I had the Four Heroes of Light. I had that. Um, I don't remember anything about it. I remember kind of just being like, yeah, this is fine.

It was weird, but, um, yeah, I never finished it either. It always just seemed kind of pretty vanilla to me. Yeah, there was just really nothing. And that's what I heard too through the grapevine. So it didn't seem like there was any reason to really go back and play it after playing Brave the Default.

And I think too, like, the thing is like, I actually really liked the, there was that Final Fantasy 4 remake that had like the weird, like poly chibi models. I actually thought that was like a really cool style. And like, I liked the fact that Bravely Default, like, I think it just got a lot of like un— unnecessary hate where I like, I get where people don't like, they want like the pixel models or whatever.

Mm-hmm.

But I thought like, I always thought that was an interesting one. Actually, I, like I said, they weren't like awesome, but I always thought those sprites were kind of like cool. It was a cool use of like that tech and it anyways.

And I, that was the only version of Final Fantasy IV I actually finished. So yeah, it was that DS one.

Yeah. And it's like, it's, it's not like the best looking, but it's, it's, it's, it's an interesting choice. And I actually really liked that, like, Bravely Default kind of like is also pays a bit of an homage to that. Like, cause I actually thought that was like an interesting direction to go. I was like, I was kind of disappointed that we didn't get more of those. Yeah.

But yeah, I got the nice art book right here. I was kind of flipping through a little bit.

Nice.

So beautiful. Yeah, very nice glossy art. It's amazing. Has all the monsters in it, all the different locations. I could just stare at this for hours. So good.

That's awesome. That's awesome. I'll need to get myself a copy of that eventually. I do have the one for Bravely Second, because when I picked up that game, I ended up getting the, you know, super deluxe edition. Uh, so I've got the art book for that one, but not the first game.

Yeah. And it, it's like, I don't, like, I don't want to get too far afield here, but it's like you, you brought up Josh that you kind of like the first, like default sort of edges out second, like edges out over second. I think like I kind of hold them sort of in tandem. Like to me, it's, I think I prefer some of the jobs and the build crafting in N layer. More than Default, but I kind of enjoy, like, I actually like the cast of characters in Default better than End Layer. Like, End Layer is like, it's a, End Layer almost sort of feels like a little too cute, like a little too, like, sort of like—

A little too anime, maybe?

Well, it's drinking a little bit too much, too much of its own Kool-Aid. It's like it's just trying to be like too cute by far. Like, I just like the protagonist. I can't remember his name in—

You.

Yeah, you. Why? Yes. Which actually just— I— that was actually kind of a— now that you bring that up, that was actually kind of a core moment for me where I just started naming all of the protagonists in all of my games either YU or HIRO. Yeah, so it's like, yeah, because it's like, again, psychopath behavior.

Um, they did that in, uh, Persona 4 also.

Yeah, yeah. But, um, I just, I do kind of like remember with N Layer where I just like the cast again. Like, Yu was just like one of those characters where I was like, he's fine. But also it's just like, I kind of want to punch him in the head.

Um, he kind of reminds me of Deku from My Hero Academia. A little bit too optimistic, maybe a little bit too ditzy in some ways.

Yeah, they just kind of like lean into like the, the klutzy kind of like buffoon thing a little bit too much with you. Like, you know, the, the for the gravy line. I was like, this is so dumb. Like, He was always like saying weird things and like making like like food references. I'm like, dude, no. Like yeah. So but yeah, I did want to like touch on that.

But yeah, so yeah, this one. So bravely default before we get into spoilers. It starts off. a lot— it feels a lot like a traditional Final Fantasy game. Not that you wake up and your main character has amnesia, you know, your mom wakes you up kind of a thing. Not like that. Um, but it feels very familiar. It feels very kind of, um, uh, medieval slash swords and sorcery.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, you know, you're, you're— it does kind of throw you right into, you know, kind of in media res. Because some of the first things that you see in the game after— you get some very mysterious scenes when you turn the game on, a fairy telling you to, you know, you'll be the one to see this through to the end. And then you get this girl kind of crying out, asking, you know, searching for a savior to please help her become the Warrior of Light kind of a thing. And then— and Warrior of Light, you know, like, oh, hey, like Final Fantasy.

Yeah.

Um, and then, uh, you, you see your main character Tiz and a huge crater. He's, he's, uh, he's farming with his younger brother and a huge crater opens up. His whole town falls into the crater and then his, then his younger brother falls into the crater as well. And so, so it's not a kid with amnesia, but it is like, wow, he's just gone through a very traumatic experience. And that's your main character. You play as him throughout the game. Um, but you go on this adventure where you meet up with, uh, with this, these cast of characters. It's just 4 characters. It's so it's not, you know, a huge— it's not a rotating cast. You do. There are plenty of characters, like dozens of characters throughout the game, uh, that you will meet as bosses. that you will get jobs from, um, that have very distinct characterization throughout the game, uh, but you have 4 characters that you're gonna have the rest of the game. Hey, like a Final Fantasy game. Um, you know, Agnès, uh, she is a Vestal of the Wind Crystal. Oh hey, there's 4 crystals, like a Final Fantasy game. So there's lots of references to Final Fantasy, and then For me, it feels very much like a Final Fantasy, a traditional Final Fantasy game in tone, in things like that. You were just talking about how Bravely Second, you feel like it, it's not quite as balanced. It tips more into the, the jokiness, which there's lots of comedy in this one as well.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but I agree, it is not quite as lighthearted As it seems. And part of it's not as lighthearted as the second game. Part of that is because of what eventually happens, which again, we're not here to spoil anything just yet, but there is more. I'll just say there's more to this game than meets the eye. It feels like your traditional Final Fantasy type experience for, I don't know, the first half. first 3 quarters of the game. Um, but there is some reframing that happens, and that happens pretty dramatically. And that's all I want to say on that right now.

But yeah, just hit the horn, man, because I feel like you're kind of teeing us up to— and we just need to start talking about, like, the ways that this, like—

Well, the last thing, kind of the minor thing that I have in the notes that I did want to tackle before we get to spoilers is just the differences with this version of the game. Um, because I do think it at least, you know, just a minute or two, um, in, in starting this up, in playing through it, I think it looks fantastic.

Yeah.

Um, and I say that because I played through the 3DS, and so I know what a 3DS game looks like. So that's my expectation. And whoa, with, um, They've really kind of smoothed things out. Doesn't look quite as jaggy, even though it's using the same, uh, the same models. But my goodness, the towns look beautiful. You actually see like all the hand-drawn artwork. That looks, that looks gorgeous.

Yeah.

Um, so I, I think this, this HD version is— it looks great knowing that it was a 3DS game. before. So if you're looking for the latest and greatest for your new Switch 2 system, you know, there's something that's gonna— that's gonna be a barn burner.

Like, no, same style, but it's, it's the— it's up-res'd, the models are cleaned up. It's like, it's really— it is really kind of pretty. Yeah, I mean, it's— it is— there is a bit of like a— an intentional style choice here and a potential sort of direction. And again, it's sort of leaning into that like chibi-esque kind of character design and stuff like that. But, um, yeah. And so, and that, that mileage may vary with that stuff, but yeah, it is like, yeah, I do remember sort of like firing that up and being like, oh boy, this is real pretty.

Yeah.

It's like, yeah, the 3DS was, is, is a great machine. Right. But yeah, I think like the, the, the, the, the jaggy word, it's like, yeah, it's just like, so like smooths a lot of those, those edges and it just kind of like, yeah. And again, it really lets some of that, that sort of that handcrafted storybook looking kind of vibe.

Yep. Yep.

Like just lets that just pop right off that. And that was like the one thing that was really cool about the 3DS is like that, that like, especially on the, the, the new 3DS, like the bigger, the second iteration, the bigger one and everything like that, the 3D on that, like, like some of those, like some of those scenes and everything actually did look kind of cool in that 3D. It wasn't like mind-blowing, but it was actually like, actually, this is, this is kind of cool. So I do remember that as well.

Yeah. Yeah. I will also say that, um, I agree with you. It's pretty amazing what Nintendo could do with the 3DS. And I've got it kind of right over my shoulder back here. Love the system. It's got so many great games on it. But playing this game on Switch 2, playing it on a big screen, playing it on or through a soundbar, the music actually gets You can— it's so much better to hear it through a sound system than through the little 3DS speakers, which again, I love the 3DS, love that system. I'm not saying anything bad about it, but it's just not the best way to experience, uh, the soundtrack that this game has. Uh, it, it feels so much better on something like Switch 2.

Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, but I think, boys, like, you know, and like, let's not kick this can any further down the road. Blow the horn, Josh.

Wait, but, but the other difference is the minigames. You get a, you get a rhythm game on Switch 2.

Okay, the rhythm game is fine. The minigames as a general, as a whole, I feel are pretty lacking.

Yeah, I'm, I'm totally kidding around. There are 2 minigames that were added. Um, I'd say most of the other, I'd say for the most part, This is the same game as 3DS. Yes, there's some very slight differences, but really it doesn't account for much. We don't need to go into that.

Nothing substantial.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Although I will say the, uh, worst thing that they took out is that you don't have the little SP drinks anymore that you would get when you would like close the DS system and you would earn these points in order to buy these little SP drinks that would actually stop time during a battle and let you attack as much as you want. Man, I was using my game so much about those things. It was so helpful on that final boss. And you don't have them now.

Yeah. And when you say final boss, you're talking true ending stuff. Yes.

Yes.

I remember the end of this game gets real tough. Like you can max out your characters and still have a rough time because they really want you to strategize. Yeah. But in order to talk about that, We do need to get into spoilers.

Spoilers! Spoilers!

Alright, typically when we get into spoilers, we try and do some impressions before we get into spoilers, and I totally forgot to do that. Um, go play the game. Don't listen to the spoilers unless you've played the game. Please. Go play the game and finish the game. Get the true ending. Oh, which is a big ask. And that's the thing about this game. It is a big ask.

There's lots of big asks.

But it rewards you. Big asterisks. Hey-oh. All throughout the game. Yeah. Uh, but we're talking spoilers now. So if you've beaten it, hey, then come along with us as we, as we talk through it. But man, oh man, I would hate for this game to get spoiled. Through a podcast conversation.

It's one of those things where it's like, I think this is a unique enough experience that like, it's— yes, there is a fairly big, um, ask as far as like time commitment. I'm actually— I'm trying to pull up the, uh, how long to beat. Yes.

Something like that. Just to see. Yeah.

Just to see.

'Cause like, uh, My, because this is my second playthrough, I feel like I'm kind of flying through the game on, on Switch 2 because I know how to play it. And so I know how to cheese it a bit, you know, I know how to get a party of monks and just like brave at the beginning of every battle.

Punch everything to death.

Yes.

This wizard, go.

Yeah.

Yeah. Like 50 hits before the enemy can even move.

Like, this is just like Bravely Default. So I don't know. I looked up the remastered and, but they're saying 54.5 hours for main story.

Okay.

Uh, completionist, 97.5.

Okay.

Um, interesting.

Yeah, I, I don't, I honestly don't remember how long I spent on the 3DS.

It was, I mean, I don't remember offhand, like, but it was probably in excess of 100 hours.

Oh, wow.

Okay.

That's right. You did, you did totally complete the game. I would say, I would say at least 60, maybe 70 for me. Maybe.

I think I'm around the same area, although I did not beat the vampire, which to my shame, because I'm scared of vampires, obviously, but.

Uh-oh. Spooky, spooky.

As you learned, if you listened to that episode I did with Paul about Bravely Default.

And I mean, technically, uh, he, there's something to be scared about because in this game, he's an integral part of actually defeating the eldritch abomination that you fight at the very end of the game.

Um, he's also got probably, I think, His job is cool, but it's also the biggest pain. Like, he reminds me very much like it's a blue mage type situation.

Oh, really?

Yeah. Oh, and you have to, you have to like—

Disappointing.

Equip that job and then defeat certain enemies under, under like certain conditions to get abilities. And it's, they're really powerful abilities, but it's a real nuisance.

Yeah. I've, I've never been a fan of blue mages.

So, well, the thing is, but I, I like blue mages in theory, but like, it's one of those, those things where it's like, I like the idea of like, hey, you have a class that's dedicated to using like monster magic, monster abilities, which are like, White Wind is like blue mages with White Wind is like, White Wind is like the best healing, like universal healing. ability in most games. Yeah, in most Final Fantasy games. But like, it's just an absolute nuisance.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so, but yeah, I, I think just like talking story beats, one of the things that like I want to stress to people, it's like, and I don't need to know that how we need to get super in-depth on like plot or anything like this, but this is a game that continually subverts expectation. It plays with the fourth wall. It engages you directly as the player. Like, and that's what, like, when we're talking about, like, this is a game that I think is very uniquely sort of positioned to sort of engage players. Like, you need to play this in order to really get what's kind of going on because it's like, it's really, really clever. Um, and it's, it kind of like, it's one of those things where like the game acknowledges that you're playing a game, but it sort of does it like in a way that sort of like brings you in on the joke too. Um, and it's, it's just, it's remarkable. Like, I, I don't think I've played anything that has like done anything comparable except for maybe End Layer, you know, but sure.

Well, I think a good analog at that time, well, close to that time, uh, did you guys ever play Contact for the original Nintendo DS?

No, but you spoke very highly of it.

Yeah, it's a great game and they do something very, very similarly to where like, I'm spoil it very much, but within the game, you as like the actual player of the game is acknowledged as the player, but you're kind of in the background and the main character is not actually like your character.

Mm-hmm.

And it does it in kind of like an EarthBound, like Bravely Default kind of way where it's like, okay, we're acknowledging that there's something more beyond here, but we're going to go ahead and like bring you in on the story and actually like, I guess in a sense, respect your intelligence and be like, oh, hey, yeah, you can actually get this. You're a smart person. You got this.

Well, and it's, it kind of leans into even sort of like almost like, um, EarthBound kind of like territory as well, where there's just like, there's a little bit of like cheekiness and again, sort of like just playing with the tropes, but even just the form of like the game. And again, in the way that, and it's kind of hard to talk about, but it's like, It directly acknowledges and engages you as the player as an integral part of the game, not just as sort of like the cipher or the man behind the cipher or the woman behind the cipher. And it does it in a way that's like actually like sort of like compelling in plot.

Like, and so, well, going along with that, if I can interrupt for a second, it is one of those situations where the game itself, if you're trying to tell this story in another medium, it's not going to work. Like you can't just make a Bravely Default anime because there's like no way that could actually work or even like a movie or anything like that, or even putting it in like a book. Like it's not a way you can't tell the story in that way. It has to be through the medium of like interacting with it.

Yeah.

Almost directly when you have the actual camera, like pointing at your face in the middle of the boss battle and you see that double chin of yours, it's the worst. There you go.

That's, that's why you play in the dark, friend.

But then, but then you don't get that, that, uh, uh, that feeling. Um, yeah.

Like, what's that abomination on the screen?

Oh, that's me.

Right.

Ooh, those are celestials, right?

When you're laying in bed, it's not a very flattering angle. Um, so yeah.

That's true.

I think too, um, one of the, the things is like, and it's just like even the way that it kind of There are things there, and, and I think we should probably start talking about like the problematic part. And I guess I'll tee that off. It's like, this is a game that about a third to halfway through, you, you, you kind of like, Josh, and you alluded to this, like it feels very like standard fare JRPG. And then something happens and you're like, what? Um, and that basically you hit a point where like you kind of you, you, you fulfill the object, like you, you do the quest thing, like you restore, like there's these full stories.

You fight the final boss, basically.

You fight the final boss, you redo this sort of like reset thing, and then it just, it kind of actually just puts you right back where you were before. And you're like, what? Okay, so you're doing this again. And it actually kind of gives you like, for a second, like, You're sort of in this, like, for a while, more than a second, you're like kind of in this, like, I'm in a time loop. And then the more you, you do, and you do this, you repeat this. And this is where the game gets like kind of tedious because the game basically has you run through itself, like the same story over and over again. But if you're paying attention and you can, there's all sorts of like optional fights, like against like mini bosses, like for the jobs and the asterisks and all that, that stuff. But like, if you're paying attention, it actually, as it unfolds, it's like, these aren't the same people. Like, you know, just the Ominous Crow. Ominous Crow, the first time you encounter him, he's, he's a maniac.

Mm-hmm.

The second time you encounter him, like, he's kind of a coward. Another time you encounter him, like, he's Like, like, you know, it's like each time it's like different wrinkles and you're like, what is going on here? And it adds more context. But it also, what actually comes out is like, you're not actually in a time loop. What you're doing is you're burrowing through reality.

Um, basically entering different like parallel worlds or parallel timelines that are happening.

Yeah. And it's kind of one of those things. And it's like, what's really fascinating is like the way that they sort of like, is that your characters, they time it with these games too. It's like there's sometimes like the ominous— I think it's the ominous crow from the second playthrough. He's like, can't you just leave me alone? Why won't you just leave me alone? Kind of thing. Or he's like, and it's like, what you don't realize is that Your team of adventurers has already been through, with, with some exceptions, and already beaten the snot out of Ominous Crow. And you're coming in after he just got thumped by a previous version of the party. So it's like, even that where there's like the wrinkles, like these characters are different, and but it's like, but some of that stuff isn't. Until you understand what's going on with this sort of like you're sort of doing like this multiverse parallel reality, kind of like again burrowing into a different reality. Until you understand that, it's just like it sort of— it does seek to add context, but it's also— I always thought it was like in hindsight where I was playing it actually recently, I was like, oh yeah, like this is kind of interesting because like there's kind of like this Especially knowing what I knew going back into it, it was like, you know, wouldn't it have been like absolutely wild for them to just have you run into the alternate version of your party? Like, minus a certain exception, you know, because, um, and, and there's like, and, and so that's like the kind of thing, and there's this conceit here, and there's like— And that's, that's the one thing that I can give to that, that, because it's like what we're talking about is like the mid to late game is just incredibly tedious. And this is the one thing where it's like, I think this is a pretty significant drawback where it's like, I actually feel like this is kind of where it doesn't feel like the game respects your time. Because how many times How many times?

You have to go through it 4 times. You have to awaken 16 crystals, I want to say.

Yeah.

And— Which means 16 bosses.

Yeah. And it's the same fights over and over and over again. And they get a little harder each and every time, you know, because it's like you're doing the leveling. And so it's like you have to be doing the grinding, you have to be doing all that stuff. And it's pretty stinking obnoxious. And yeah, I just, I do feel like I felt like it was more, maybe it felt like more because, um, because it's really tedious and you kind of hit a point where it's like, you don't have to do all the Asterisk fights again. You just have, you can go kind of like straight to the crystals, fight the bosses and be sort of in and out. But even there, it's like you have to fight the bosses and it You do sort of hit like leveling, like basically like leveling blocks where like the game sort of gates you off because you're just like, it's a level check, it's a stat check, and you're just not ready. You're just not ready for those fights. And so that part, I think it's one of those things where, yeah, I just think that part gets like, that's there. There's something about that. Where it's like, I feel like that would have almost been handled better with like a video sequence. But I do under— it's kind of like, Josh, it's kind of where it's like when we were talking about Persona 3, and this is, this is where I'll shut up and I'll let you guys sort of like, you know, sort of tell me how you think I'm wrong. But it's like, you remember how when we were talking about Persona 3 and you felt like the the FES version of the game best sort of like thematically like made sense in the fact that like these are other people and sort of like navigating their decisions where I'm like, yeah, I get that. Where it's like, but I actually, I think that it's a very unfun part of the game and it actually sort of detracts from the experience. It's comparable to this where it's like, it's actually like you as the player, and again, it's sort of you being actively engaged with, it's like, this is very confusing up until the point where it's like, oh no, I get what's going on here. And that's like, that is kind of like satisfying, but it's also, like I said, I think at the same time, it is a bit of a disrespector of a person's time. And it's probably like the biggest— it's a good 12, 15 hours that they should probably have just done a better job streamlining that.

So, yeah, that's me.

That's my take. That's what keeps it from being— that's a pretty significant flaw in the masterpiece. So who wants to tell me how I'm wrong and why I'm wrong? And then be prepared to just be like, you're, you know, my response will be like, you're, you are allowed to be wrong.

Well, I'll go actually. So, okay. So I felt pretty similarly to you, Nate, especially when I had to recommend this to Paul, because as we know, I love Paul, but he's not a very patient gamer. He'll drop things at the drop of a hat, like no problem. I had to put up with the text messages back and forth being like, okay, I'm dropping the game now. Okay, I'm picking back up. He didn't do that just one time. He did that like multiple times. So don't let him fool you. Like there were multiple times where he was just like, yeah.

A fairly new game to play. And we know exactly, he's, he's a man of antiquity.

And it was still 7 years old at that point.

So, you know, it's dude, it needed another 15, 20 years before he would have been ready.

That's true. That's true. Maybe all of us felt that way. Maybe that's exactly how I feel now, because at this point in my life, now that I've played all the old Final Fantasy games, I've beaten them all. I feel like the storytelling aspect of that, like you, well, number one, you don't have to beat every single one of the Asterisk holders every time you do a reset in the game.

Mm-hmm.

It's actually really, really fast. If you just wanted to like bust through each of those sections, you only have to repeat it about 4 or 5 times. So you could just go straight to the crystals, beeline it all the way to the end, be done within like 45 minutes for each chapter.

And you don't have to go get all the asterisks on one playthrough. You can't.

True, true.

The original version, I don't, I can't remember about the DS version, but it's like you had to, I think in the original or in the, in the DS version, you had to pick one of the asterisks. Right.

But then you can get it the second time through pretty easily.

I think in the Switch, I think this is actually in the Switch version. I think you get both. So that, that, that does completely negate any need to revisit any of the other, um, like in the, the dual asterisk fights.

Which is true. I'm just like pointing out, it's like you say like 12 to 14 hours. It doesn't necessarily have to be 12 to 14 hours because you could do each of those loops in under an hour pretty easily just going to each of the crystals. So like, does it add another 4 or 5 hours? Yes, but you don't have to go. It's like, I feel like what the game is like, it's giving you the opportunity to revisit a lot of these different things. And if you do, there is a reward for doing so, but you don't have to. You could get a very similar experience regardless if you just like Which for me, like on the 3rd or 4th loop at that point, I was just like, yeah, I'm just going to go fight the different crystal monsters and just be done with it because it was getting a little bit long in the tooth. I, I don't know. I've kind of, uh, I don't know. I feel like I've softened on that a little bit because I feel like this is the story that they're trying to tell. It does involve these different like alternate timelines or kind of like time travel aspects to it. So I want to meet it on its terms. And if you were to just create a montage, like you're not going to get that same kind of feeling from the game itself, whether it's a good or bad feeling. Like, you know, we can obviously disagree on that, but I think that providing that opportunity to experience that kind of story is helpful. It provides something different, I think, instead of just, you know, letting you kind of have the easy way out. It's like you actually do have to struggle through some of this stuff.

I, and I, I get that, but it's, it's, it's one of those things where it's like, and I agree, like the montage would like cheapen it. Okay. But I'm saying like the, the fact that you have to, yeah, you have to like run through the game sort of in its entirety. And yes, you can sort of like just sort of like nip on over to each fight. But there's also, you do have to grind. You have to get some like levels in.

Mm-hmm.

Um, because like those fights do get harder. And I think that this is somewhere where I think possibly the remaster version does do some streamlining where it's It's not as aggressive and that, but like the DS version, it was like, it's egregious. Like, you know, there, there was, you had, you had to like stop and grind. And I mean, you were probably doing some of that anyways, but like, yeah, I don't know.

I guess I just don't see the grinding aspect to be as like detrimental to the story that they're trying to tell, because you're going to have to do that in any RPG you play. There's always going to be some kind of—

It's like, it's— Paul said this, I think, and I— but it's the Frodo and Sam walking through Mordor thing where it's like, it's like, yeah, this— it just, it's just not optimal. And it's like, there, there should have been a better way to do this without sort of like— because I think that is like, that is the point where it's like, yes, you sort of like, you persevere and you get through. Like, it's also like, it's a, it's a point where you're going to lose like people. Yeah.

But I mean, people keep saying that game companies need to take risks and tell different types of stories as well though. So like trying to tell this different type of story, I feel like they're, they're taking that risk and they do risk losing people.

Like, yeah, I get that. But I'm like, but they didn't do a good job there. Like that, that's, it's like, it's like, yeah, I appreciate the risk. And I'm, I'm one of the people who pushed through, but like in hindsight, I'm looking back and I'm saying like, it just wasn't done well. Like, I get what you're trying to do. Like, that's, that's something where it's like, that's almost like a little too much friction on the, on the player side of things, I think, where it's just like— Maybe.

But then I also think about like, what is the payoff that you get? You get all these really amazing things at the end of the game, all the things within the menu that you get to see. You get to see the whole thing with how the Title menu changes, which I know Josh really wants to talk about. He's like really like busting at the seams for that. It's like all these different little aspects weave together the differences on a certain character's, like, you know, Ares wings basically, and how that changes over time. And when you come to that slower realization—

I'm just specifically talking about the fact that like, yes, there are payoffs, but like that 5-hour, 6-hour chunk, and I think it does translate for most people. into more like 10 hours. And it's specifically on the DS version because again, it's like if you want all the asterisks, you have to go through all those fights again. And so it's like, it is one of those things where I just think like that chunk of the game, it's a big enough, like this is like, this, this game is like probably a 9 or a 10 with, but it's like you hit that and that's it. Like specifically, it's like, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm hearing you where it's like, yes, the payoffs. to me are worth it. But I'm also saying, like, it's, it's like, again, this is not an insignificant flaw. This is not me, this is not me grousing about like, oh, there's no hookshot, I'm gonna like get in my feelings and, and be contrarian. This is me saying like, no, I actually think this is a pretty big problem in the sense where it's like—

Yeah.

And I get that it's part of like that, that era Like this, like a lot of games did stuff. Well, not like this, but like, you know, they, it was, but it's like, this is just like, it's a really like, even as somebody like, again, I love this game. I have a lot of fond memories. I'm just like, that's like the one where I was like really hoping there'd be like some sort of like correction. And like where it's like, again, just even streamlining the process or something.

You know, but it's like, I will say that if they could have just done one less loop, at least one, just one less one, that probably would have helped it a lot.

Yeah, at that point, point in time, like, you know, because it's— you get, you get into the— I mean, even on the third loop, I just remember this. I, and again, it's like, I didn't even get that far. I didn't even get that far in the remaster, my playthrough through the remaster. because I was like, I'm not doing this. I played it through, like, twice. I got into the third loop, and I was just like, nope, nope. I just can't. Because it hits like a tedium because it doesn't— I think this is the thing. It doesn't offer anything substantial, like, new. It's just like, oh, I'm just going to Keep doing this, I guess. And I think that that's, like I said, I understand it and there's a part of me that sort of respects it. But I also think like, it's like one of those things where I like the intent, I like the idea behind it, like I like a lot of it. I think the execution is just like, it's, it's in a game that is really great on everything else. that mid to late game section, that's a belly flop. Like, that's a W. That's an L. Like, it's like, nope, this is bad. And I don't know how to fix it in a sense, in a way that— but it's like, this part is bad. Like, it introduces completely unnecessary friction that just doesn't in my opinion, add, like, the payoff isn't enough. Like, yes, I like that, like, the, the thing with Ares' wings and the way the title screen changes and all that other stuff. I'm just saying, like, and those are neat things, but it's again, yeah, like, even if you can trunk it, like, here's, here's, okay, you, you want us to do 4 playthroughs, make it a much more truncated experience. Where like, it's just like, you know, and that is kind of addressed in the remaster version because again, you don't have to go back and sort of fight all the Asterisk holders that you missed, you know, but it's also just like, yeah, it's 4 or 5 hours that probably should have been like 2.

Yeah. But then again, on the other side though, it's just like, why is this game memorable? It is because it did something like that. Bravely Second, love that game. It's fantastic. It does not do anything even close to what the first game tries. And because of that, it's not going to stand the test of time. Bravely Default 2 doesn't do anything like that. And because of that, that is completely throwaway game. Like it's fun. It's good for what it is, but it doesn't have anything to make you like really sink your teeth into it and remember it.

And again, I, I'm just like, I think like it's kind of like one of those things. It's everything else but that mid to late game section. is just like, it's like, it's like Cindy Crawford, but she's got a giant hairy wart on the end of her nose. Right? You know, it's like, she's a 10. But dude, that wart—

You are definitely a child of the '80s.

Kind of gross, man. I don't know. Like, I'm just, you know, like Cindy Crawford.

Okay.

Yes.

But like, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's, it's one of those things where I'm, and I'm not trying to be like crass or anything like that.

It's like, I mean, I get it. I get it. I was there too. I'm just, I'm trying to see it from the perspective of how it's aged and what the industry has become and what they were trying to do at the time. I think they were a bit more forward thinking than we give them credit for.

Like, I, it was, it was like one of those things where it's like, yeah, I think it's the most memorable because of everything else it does. And it's, it's kind of like, I think it's more of an issue where it's like End Layer.

Yeah.

It doesn't lean as heavily into it, but like, it is very much one of those things where like, I think it's like it's the first time you see the trick.

That's true too.

It's like it's the first time you're seeing this trick and you're like, oh, this is really clever. That's really smart. So, but Josh, you look like you're struggling, pal. So why don't you sort of jump in here and sort of share some of your thoughts, man?

Yeah. So I will say experientially, I was very frustrated. Playing through this section where you have to play through it over and over and over again. Um, I think I've actually got— now, I haven't actually played through it again, so that could be part of, uh, maybe why I'm softening on it, why I don't mind it as much. It's just that the more that I thought about it, the more that I don't know how else it could be done. And because this HD version, they did not choose to change it because that would have been the, you know, this game is known for having this section and it not being very fun. And that was my experience as well.

Nice to say about it, right?

Um, however, just the more that I think about it, the more that I think it exemplifies some of the themes of the game. It, uh, I, I said this, I believe it was off, you know, we weren't recording at the time. I think it actually introduces you into the final boss character of the game, who is Ouroboros. It's the snake eating its tail, uh, because of the cycle, uh, going round and round and round. You know, it's, it's this idea of, of eternity, but it It's eternity, but futility, right? It's the snake eating its own tail. And I think this is how you're introduced to even that concept, is you're experiencing it as the player. You're experiencing it, but it also introduces you to, oh, these are actually alternate worlds. Not that you know that in the moment. And that's what makes it so frustrating because they can't let on, but they can hint. And that's what they do by giving you these different, slightly different forms of each of these characters that you run into. Now, eventually, you know, like you were talking about, Nate, I just didn't care. I didn't care. I just, you know, you go straight to the crystals, you awaken the crystals, you fight the bosses, and you move on because my goodness, this is, yeah, this feels like a slog. So I'm, I'm wrestling with it. Um, because I do think mechanically as a video game, it's not a good choice. But as a thematic story, I think it is. I think it does. It, it, I think it does. Yeah. Introduce you and, and push forward the theme and the story, uh, within the game in a way that's experiential.

I might be willing to concede that, but I still think it's like, it's just like one of those things where I think if maybe you truncated some of that version, like where it's like, I don't know, it's, it's the Sam and Frodo walking through Mordor where I'm like, this is just painful. And I kind of resent the fact that you're doing this to me. Like, um, it is kind of like that hard line. I, I just, like I said, it's one of those things where it's like somebody way smarter has got to come up with a better answer. But it's just like all the, it's like one of those things where it's like, kind of like the, like, you know, like, how will you know it? You know, how, how do you define pornography? It's like, well, I know it when I see it. It's like, how do you know that that's a bad idea? I know it when I see it.

Yeah.

I know it when I play it.

Right. You know it when you play it. But in terms of, again, the story, the way that it— gosh, there are things in Moby Dick that I didn't enjoy reading through because I'm like, what does this have to do with the overarching story of the book?

Not everything needs to be chapters on white.

Um, chapters on—

there's—

oh, is that describing all the different types of whales and stuff like that?

All the, all the different types of white. Like, there's a whole chapter in Moby Dick where— okay, where he like just rants.

That's right.

Like, all the virtues of white.

Yeah.

I mean, yeah, yeah, all the vileness of white as well. But yeah, yeah, no, I get it. I just think, like I said, it's one of those things where It's like I said, I'm, I'm just like, dude, it's, it's the— it's again, it's the wart on the nose of like a super cute baby or something like this. Like, this is like almost perfect and kind of like great.

Mm-hmm.

And then it's like, oh, but like that thing's really kind of gross. Um, No.

I don't know. I guess I just see it as like a very specific type of experience of some kind of art form in my mind. I don't know. It's like, let's take a— it's like one of your darlings, for example, Shadow of the Colossus. Would Shadow of the Colossus be as engaging of an experience if the controls were like streamlined and made it much easier? Like the struggle that you have to do to go and kill the Colossi with that PS2 controller and that awful, awful control scheme. Especially at the end when he knocks you off and you're like all the way back at the beginning. That drove me absolutely nuts.

Better with better controls.

Yes, but would you have remembered it as much? Would it have been as impactful for you?

Because I think like that's the thing is like it's like the bad control scheme is unnecessary friction because like the controls aren't the point of like, like, you know, The gameplay loop is hindered by the, like, I know what you're saying. And I just think like, it's like, yeah, I just like the game is actually better when the controls are better. Yeah.

Because, but what if they streamlined it to the point where it was like, oh, you just have to push a couple buttons and then you're there versus you have to actually like struggle with every button on the controller though.

That's dude, that's like, That's frankly like whataboutism.

Like, it's like, I'm just saying, like, kind of analogous though. If you're going to streamline it, like, and make it easier, I'm not saying about making it easier. I'm saying like, or take away the friction, at least smooth it out.

Like, smooth it out a little bit here. Like, I think like, this is, I guess what I'm saying is like, I think that the mid to late game section, the hardest part about it is like, it's just like too much friction. And like, like, and I think that's kind of like the problem where it's like, it's just, it goes like too hard in the paint. And like the fact that like, you know, so many people are just like, yeah, I got to that part. And it's like, I just wanted to quit the game. And it's like, and the fact that like, you have to like, sort of like that people have to like white knuckle their way through this because like, it is, it is In a way worthwhile on the other side of it. But it's also just like, at the same time, dude, like, this is a video game. And I think what it's saying is pretty cool. But it's like, unfortunately, like, and I think that's like, yeah, like sometimes like, yeah, you got to muscle through stuff. I just, again, it's like, yeah, I get what you guys are saying. I just like, I still maintain that it's like, it's just not. It's not a good section of the game and it's actually kind of a problem because it's like, it just, yeah. I'm not saying I want them to like completely like flatten it. Um, cause I don't think, I think that actually kills some of it, but it's like, it's definitely like, yeah, like make it so that like the, the, the second playthroughs are like more truncated where it's like, it's not as much of a slog. you know, like communicate a little bit more. I don't, I don't know. I don't have a great answer. I don't have a great solution. I'm just telling like, it's like, and that's like, because if I could fix it, then I just, I'd, I'd make a video game where I'd fix that problem. You know, I'd be like, hey, this is how you fix this problem over here. Um, I'm just like, like all I can do is identify the issue and just sort of say like, yeah, I, yeah.

I get it. I get it. It's, I was like that too.

I just, you know, the big head.

I guess I've just come around. I just like warts, I guess. Yeah.

That's cool for you, bud. Like, uh, flawed masterpieces. But yeah.

Yeah. I, I do really think this, this game is something special. I mean, yeah, just about everything. about the game I really enjoy. I say that, you know, there, there are some anime tropes that, that rear their head throughout the gameplay, or excuse me, throughout the, the story of the game, you know, certain characters and things like that.

The Bravo bikini doesn't do it for you?

Yeah, that, I mean, even the, even the character of the, you know, the lecherous old man, you know, he's in there. He's in there as well. Okay. So there's, I would say it never goes as bad as, you know, other video games. That sounds, that sounds so lame. I'm speaking in generalizations here, but I've seen much worse in other games. Okay. It does. It's not like it comes on way too hard, but there are parts that I wish kind of weren't in the game. Conversations and things like that. That's, that's all that I'm talking about.

Yeah.

But, but I, I do really enjoy the game. I think You know, the story, it hooked me. And then what it ends up doing with the story, and like I mentioned earlier, kind of reframing everything, showing the different sides to a lot of these apparently evil characters, and showing, yeah, just like the shades of gray, showing the alternate even versions. And then finally that You know, the ending, which just goes absolute bonkers, which in one sense is very similar to early Final Fantasy games where like, hey, the main villain isn't really the main villain. They're just the servant to the main villain who shows up out of nowhere. You know, that happens. But I think it was hinted at throughout the game. It was foreshadowed, so it's not as far left field. And then what they do with that, of course, if you know, if you played the game, which I hope you have if you're listening to spoilers, um, and—

None of this made sense up to this point.

Right, right, exactly, because we did not explain jack. Um, the way that the kind of the, the game frames you, the player, as a celestial inhabiting Tiz and shows you up on the screen during the final battle. It just— man, that's some of the stuff that, like, I remember it gave me chills, you know, when I realized kind of what was happening playing the game.

Well, and it's also, it's just so good in keeping with the stuff that, like, the celestial sort of reveal, right? But then there's also just like And sort of talking about that, like, let's talk about the wings. Let's talk about the way that the title screen changes because like, this is a good— again, these are like subversive things that other games haven't done. And it's just like, and it like, there just comes a point where it's like, oh no, like the game kind of like slaps you in the face and says, wake up. Like, you know, where it's like when the title screen changes and it says You know, not where the— where bravely the fairy— what, what does it say on that?

Yeah, where the fairy flies.

Yeah.

And where the, you know, fade away, and then the Fs fade away, and it just says Aerie Lies.

And like blood red. It's great.

It's—

man.

Yeah.

It's like— and then like there's like the cue where it's like Aerie's wings actually have numbers on them. And I can't remember, is it like counting up or counting down?

Down.

Counting down.

Yeah. And so, and it's like you actually have to like progress all the way to the end of that countdown in order to face the final boss who is like, so it turns out like Airy is this like, she's a Christ fairy, but like her goal is like harness all this power to basically feed her boss. Which is Ouroboros, the worm that devours itself. And he's bent on, like, he's been consuming these realities essentially, like, kind of like burrowing through.

Yeah. So she's linking the worlds together is what she does through the, through the chasm. She links these alternate universes together so that Ouroboros can devour each one of them.

Mm-hmm.

So, and so like, and it's, it's one of those things that, so like the final fight is, you know, Airy reveals herself and she like, I just remember like the, the, she goes from like the cute little fairy to like the grotesque, like maggot looking thing.

Yeah.

It's like, oh, this is, this is pleasant. You know?

And there are interesting hits about that as well throughout the game because I was listening to this YouTube video and he kept like making it a point to bring up like whenever Eri was acting off and like talking about how she's just kind of like generally kind of an annoying creature regardless, and that she's like hates children and everything and has nothing good to say about them. It's just like, oh, okay, they're starting to show the true nature like really early on, but you don't really get it unless you understand like what they're going through there.

Yeah, she just kind of seems like a little bit of a brat and a priss. Yeah, like, um, and again, it's just like the game kind of like constantly sort of like unfolding things and sort of like kind of asking you the question, like, like, hey, it's sort of reminds me, I was, I was actually talking to somebody about The Ranking of Kings, the anime. Did either one of you guys watch that?

Mm-hmm.

It's, it's the first season is really kind of like pretty charming, pretty cute, but like it does this really kind of like masterful thing where you like watch like the first half of it. and you sort of think you have this picture of like how things are going, but then like you get to like the second half of the season and it sort of like flips all these cards and says like, you're seeing pieces here, but actually like here's the whole picture. And it's much different than what your perception sort of like is showing you. And I think that that's like pretty— that, that stuff is pretty masterful.

Yeah.

Um, so, and it's like, and again, like the game's Like, it is, it is so clever and so like, it's so smart. It's just such a smart game.

Mm-hmm.

And it's like, like I said, I just really hate like the mid to late game where it's like, it's kind of worth it, but it's also, it's just like, it's kind of like it does sour a little bit of that milk, you know, where it's like, oh, it's just like, yeah. Like, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, like, I'm kind of enjoying this, but I just, mm, it's like a little bit of mold on my cheese or something. Meats and cheeses always pleases.

Yeah, there you go. Um, your time—

I would be curious what you would think now, like, now that you're a little bit older, going back and actually, like, going through it. One thing I was going to do, and I just totally forgot because this year has been crazy, but I was actually going to try to have my oldest son play through it. Because I was very curious what his reaction would be. So if that ever happens, I would definitely talk about it, but just never got a chance to. And he's too busy playing Minecraft with friends. So I get, I get the struggle, Paul. I get it.

And I will say too, I, I do think that this is a game that is made for people who are already familiar with JRPGs, like, because it plays on a lot of the tropes of them. It's like made for gamers, you know? It's, it's not, it's not like an introduction to it. It is kind of a response to, um, again, kind of those early Final Fantasies. Um, you mentioned how smart this game is. And so I just have to say, we don't have to spend time on it, but there is so much wordplay throughout this game. There's so many puns.

Mm-hmm.

All over the place.

I mean, Josh likes his puns.

One of your characters, her name is Ideally, and she sees the world in black and white. Like, yeah. And her dad's name is Bravely.

Bravely.

You know, like, so good. Yeah.

What was her mom's name? Wasn't her mom's name also something?

Um, her mom was named something. Yes, that's true.

It's—

and it's not—

it's—

yes, it's another pun. Yeah.

But, um, I just don't recall. Yeah. Oh, well, and I, I'm glad you came back to the, the naming conventions because I actually—

you had—

and I don't know if, uh, Moserly—

Miserly. Yeah.

Or could be miserly, but I think it's more like motherly.

Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, because her—

yeah, um, Mazur. Um, but like even Agnès, and like Paul brought this up and sort of like, and we talked about how like Agnès Oblige is sort of like, uh, like a, almost like a slant rhyme with, um, Noblesse Oblige. But it's actually like Paul brought up the fact that it was like her name means chaste or pure or holy.

Mm-hmm.

It's not The obli— the, the obligation of the nobility to help those around them, to, to like, it's the obligation of the holy, of the pure to care for those around them and provide service.

Yep.

Um, I, I'm not sure what Tiz Arier or Tiz Arier.

I think it's this warrior.

Oh, this warrior. Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's not, it's kind of, it's not terrible.

I don't hate that.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's the weak. But I actually think Agnes's name is like really potent. Yes, it's like that's actually like really powerful. Yeah, um, and then you got Ringabel, right?

Which, that one's pretty on the nose, you know.

Best character.

Yeah, um, and Alternis. Um, yeah, yeah, I mean, it's, it's all over the place actually, uh, Wes, in re-listening your episode on the Retro Station, which we should link to that, by the way. Um, if anyone wants to go listen to that, um, you also mentioned, oh, I just lost it. Oh, how it's very much like a Dragon Quest, how they have lots of puns all throughout those games as well. And yeah, I'd, I'd say it's similar.

Uh, and just going to each town, you have to solve a different problem. It's very true. I mean, it's, you know, Final Fantasy itself is like that, but Dragon Quest seems to lean more into that. kind of adventuring and exploring.

Yeah.

I feel like.

So we've, we've talked a lot about just like the game and I know we had like a little bit of a, we got kind of like side-railed on the argument about the mid-game and whether or not that's worthwhile, but actually I—

It was a loving argument. A loving argument.

Yeah, no, it wasn't, it wasn't like bad. It wasn't like, I hate you. Like, you're the worst. It's like, um, it's like, but like thematically. I think this game is like, it's one of those things that as we've been talking about it, like, um, there's some interesting themes to like pull out here, right? Like, I think like the sort of like, it's, it's kind of like one of those things where I think at the very least, like sort of maybe on a very like surface level, but like the road to hell is, is paved with good intentions.

Mm-hmm.

Like the whole time, like they're fighting to save reality and they're destroying worlds. You know, under, because they just, they don't have all the relevant, like the relevant information, you know? Um, so there is kind of like, that's like, I think that's something where it's like, that's a really potent theme. And that's like something where it's like, you know, just again, it's sort of that the subversion of expectations and like, yeah, the, the bad guys, they're actually just dedicated to saving their world. That's why they're trying to prevent you from empowering the crystals, because they know that once that happens, it basically means it leads to the destruction of their world.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think in various ways, too, you see throughout the game the value of, for lack of a better term, human life, but the value of life in general. I mean, so many of the characters are affected by— Tiz is affected by his brother's death all throughout the game. You know, Agnes is fighting so hard so that people won't die. And there's a lot of death throughout the game, you know, Olivia. Goodness. And that's not even to say, like, the other alternate timelines, you see a lot of death. Your whole party— I got gosh, Alternis, ring a bell? You know, is, is affected by Edea's death in his timeline. And so you see that throughout the game, you're fighting so much for your people and for others. You're sacrificing so much, and you see the toll that it takes too on the characters when they kind of brush up against death. So I think that's another big thing that you see throughout the game.

Yeah. I mean, I think there's, there's probably some more there. I think, I think like Agnès, uh, there's a few more than a few sort of like scenarios where like she's like sort of again and sort of like pursuing righteousness and sort of advocating for like Justice on the behalf of people, like it brings her into conflict with you know, like corrupt governments. But again, even sort of like when you you dig a little bit further, it's like oh this isn't as insane. You know, it's like there's there's actually some merit here, but it's just like I think like the futility, like there's like they they sort of go through like little bits of existential crises where it's like. They're like, why are we even doing this? Like Agnès has a sort of a crisis of faith in some ways. Um, and it's like, like, yeah, these things take a toll. Like they weigh heavy on us and like they demand things out of us.

I don't know.

But yeah, I don't know. I just, I think like, like I said, one, there's sort of the cleverness and the sort of the really, it's just, again, it's, it's just such a smart game, like the way that it sort of just kind of like, for the most part, just kind of like sets its hook in you and just kind of like keeps you, keeps tugging you a little bit further and further and further. Yeah, that's pretty masterful.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great game. Um, it's, it's one of my favorites, you know, I think of it very fondly and the bit that I've played of this HD one makes me want to play through it again. So We'll see.

I mean, there's a reason for me that it just never leaves my top 5 ever, because it's just always— I mean, yeah, like, gosh, even top 3 at times, honestly. It's just, it's just such a memorable experience and it came at a very specific time in my life, like I mentioned. So yeah, I don't know. There's always going to be that emotional tie to it, but I think even independent of that, I feel like it's a pretty solid JRPG for sure. Not one I'd recommend to Mark, but it's a pretty solid JRPG.

Well, it's, it's a game that I think, you know, Josh, you were saying like, it's a game that targets like gamers. I think it more, it's even more niche than that. It's a game that like, this is a love letter to people who love JRPGs. Like you have to be pretty well-versed in like JRPGs to sort of like hang out with this game.

Yeah. Yeah.

And you have to, you have to really like them. Yeah.

Awesome. Well, any final thoughts? I think that's, uh, obviously there's so much more to say about the game, but anything that you're just burning to share before we close out the episode?

Great music. Fantastic music. It's unbelievable. Every single track. It's lit. It slaps. Bangers. Full of bangers. So many bangers.

Lots of rippers.

Especially that one, uh, Beneath a Hollow Moon, which I guess is like the love theme between Tiz and Agnès. Such a good song. So good. Go listen to it now. Play it now. Play it now. At the end here.

Do it right now. Um, I think, I think even though it's sort of like I, I talked about just like how sort of gross and egregious I feel like that mid to late game sort of phase is. I actually think this is a great game and people should play it, but it's just like also go in knowing like, yeah, you are gonna have to, like, there's a chunk of this game where you're just gonna have to fight through it.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. It's like it, it needs to be heavily caveated in that, that regard. Yeah.

I think, I think if you're someone who, who that we just talked about, someone who loves JRPGs, then it's a must-play. But I think for everyone else, yeah, should. Well, and honestly, it's difficult because, because the game does get very difficult. The end of the game is hard. And so you really need to kind of know what you're doing. I like games that are like that. I like Shin Megami Tensei games. I like games that force you to try different strategies in order to beat them. Not that I'm very good, but that it's, it's fun to figure out those kinds of puzzles and to meet a challenge on its terms. So I could see, you know, there's, there are some caveats to it, but I think it's a fantastic game. So, and I'm so glad that it's now readily available in lots of different, lots of different places. Mediums media. That's what it is. Yeah. So intermediaries, whether that's console or PC.

Yeah.

Well, I'm dude. I'm fading, Josh. I saw you fading fast. Fading and Wes. Apparently, you have to like go teach or something tomorrow.

Probably. Yeah.

It is about four hours anymore. It's real late.

So, boys, are you saying we should land a plane?

Dude, I think we should call this thing because like, we're fading fast.

Um, might have to do a crash landing.

Yeah, well, if we don't, if we don't, we're just gonna crash.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, there you go.

But yeah, yeah, it's, it's kind of one of those things where I think like, it's— this is A pretty, pretty rad game. Definitely worth a check out, but it's, um, it's pretty cool.

At least a 7 out of 10. At least.

I mean, it's, it's like, it's like a 9 out of 10, but it's got an asterisk on it.

Ah, see what you did there?

I hate that I just said that out loud.

Wow.

Puns. Puns.

Love it. Awesome. Well, before we shut down the podcast, we usually do some shoutouts. I'll give a shoutout to Trash Turkey. I know, Nate, you had shouted him out before for this very thing, but it wasn't on a main episode. So I'm doing it here on a main episode. He started a new podcast. It's called Picking Up with Trash Turkey, where he talks about his pickups. He goes to estate sales, things like that. He finds deals. And he talks about the deals that he's picked up, and that's just a lot of fun. I enjoy it. Um, I don't always enjoy that type of content because it's hard to find diamonds in the rough, but if the content is the diamonds that you have found, oh man, that, that gets me. I like that. And Trash Turkey's a good man. So, uh, or a good turkey. He's, he's not, he's not a foul foul. Yes. Yeah, there you go. Um, I enjoy what he does. So, Picking Up with Trash Turkey, check it out. It's a fun time. Shout out to you, Jeremy.

Yeah, dude.

Do you guys have any shout outs?

Turkey's the world. How about you, Wes?

I do, I do. And she'll never hear this because she never listens to anything I ever do, and that's quite okay. But I will give a shout out to my wife for doing really, really great for the last year, picking up, you know, all the slack that I kind of left when I had to go out and do all this master's degree stuff. It wasn't easy for her, and she doesn't get as much appreciation as I'd like to. So here's my appreciation on a podcast she'll never listen. So shout out to her for being really cool and raising 4 crazy children while I was laid up, basically.

Awesome. Awesome. Nate, you got any shout outs?

I wanted to I'm, I'm pulled up Patreon here because I wanted to look at, I, I'm pretty sure we got a new, new patron and I wanted to, I, he might be a returning patron. I can't remember.

Pyrulian? Is that who you're thinking of?

Yeah.

But, um, Patreon's being weird and it won't show me our Patreon list. No. Um, but yeah, um, yeah, I wanted to say welcome, Pyrulian. Um, yeah, if you need help getting into the— if, if you haven't found the link for the brohang or whatever, like, yeah, feel free to reach out. Like, it's always cool to have patrons, you know, like, um, we really do appreciate those guys. Yeah.

Yeah.

So awesome. And like, yeah, it's just cool. Like, welcome. Also, like, hey, it's really cool to have Wes, you know, get on some content. He's like, things have been, uh, yeah.

Thanks for being here. Thanks for losing sleep along with us, uh, in order to talk about this awesome game. Um, Yeah, and guys, if you like what you hear, we would like it if you liked us. Like the, the, the YouTube video. That's what I'm saying.

Like, share, subscribe. Do the sharing and the caring.

All that fun stuff. Apparently there's a hype button on YouTube. I don't even know what it does. But it's fun to push things sometimes. Anyways.

Especially if that gets us more money.

The $0 from YouTube that we get.

Yeah, but yeah, yeah, I think all that being said, guys, we've— I, I think there's— it's like one of those things where it's like there's definitely more could be said about this game.

Yeah, absolutely.

For what it's worth, I think we sort of did a bang-up job sort of, you know, running through this, and I think, uh, we just need to call it. And so Yeah. Until next time, boys and girls, you know, be cool, don't be weird, and all those other— but what else should they do besides being cool and not being weird, Josh?

Uh, you can check out our social media at linktree.com/thebacklogbreakdown. And in addition to that, keep beating down your backlogs. We'll keep breaking down the benefits.

Yeah, that's it. This is Phil from Phil's Gaming Emporium. We have all your retro needs and are a proud sponsor of the Play Well Network. In honor of you getting pwned, we are offering a cheap, cheap, cheap backlog reduction sale. Just request our services with the promo code BACKLOGHALFOFF for 50% off our backlog services. After that, we simply send you a package for you to put your backlog in, and once the mail carrier comes, your backlog is gone. It's like magic. You have a clean slate and room for more games that you can order from our website, Bill's Gaming Emporium.