211: A Book Club Episode About A Game About Digging A Hole

Off.

Hey, welcome back to another episode of the Backlog Breakdown, a video game podcast where we seek to encourage and to equip the church to engage the medium of video games wisely and responsibly. We'll see how much of that we can do today. When we're talking about the game that we're talking about today. I'm one of your hosts, Josh. With me today is my co host, my brother in Christ, my friend Nate. How you doing, Nate?

I am hanging on by a thread.

Oh, well, we'll see if you need to be lower down or if that threat is gonna snap.

No, don't.

Don't do it. Don't do it. Just stop. Stop.

Down the bottomless pit.

Nope. Nope.

Because in addition to us, we also have a. I don't know, a cadre. Is that the right word? Is that a way.

It's quite the ensemble, yes. It's quite the ensemble, yes.

A whole lot of people with us today who dig this game. So I don't even know. We've got. We've got. Well, I'm just gonna go by. How about this? I'll say the names that are in front of me in our call, and then you guys can introduce yourselves. If you'd like to give out your. Your real names, how however deep you want to go, you're welcome to it. So we've got a Porch Digger. We've got Papa Wargs. We've got Dig the Basement. We've got Spike G.D. no, I forgot the T. TGD and Mark Erickson as well. So welcome, guys. Thank you.

Thank you for being normal. Mark.

I don't know.

I just. I didn't know you were doing a bit here.

I didn't.

I didn't either. They do this to me. They. They make you make everything awful.

Well, I do dig it a little bit. So,

yes. And so we've got everyone on today because this is a book club episode. I'm sure you can tell by the title episode, but our book club game is a game about digging a hole. So that is what we're going to be talking about today. But before we talk about that, we've got a few other things to. We've got a few forms that we typically observe. And so. Well, Nate, I'll start with you. I'll just ask how you've been since last we talked.

I was better until all of you started in with your chicanery.

That's a good word.

Yeah, it is a good word.

Yeah.

And it's. It's Not a pun or anything stupid like that. It's just a good word. Yeah, I was doing better until you guys started abusing me.

Yeah.

So.

Well, I'm glad to hear that you've been doing well. So all things.

Oh, I mean, yeah, all things considered, things are okay.

Yeah.

Everybody's relatively happy and healthy, so it could be better, could be worse kind of deal. So.

Nice.

We're good. How are you?

I'm doing well. I had a busy weekend because my daughter turned 9 years old, so we had some fun there. It was Mother's Day this past weekend. I know, right? I was just thinking about how, I think, had you sent something, maybe a video or something like that? When she turned five, I remember walking around in Costco in something like, we were texting about something, and she was so much younger, so it's crazy. So, yeah, my. So she's second out of three kids, but oldest is a son, and man nine is halfway to 18, so that's super fun. It's also.

Wow,

that's a rough way to put is.

And I noticed that with my son, and so I point that out to my wife all the time just to freak her out. Uh, but also our third is his daughter as well. Uh, she. She's only five. She'll be six here in a few months. And. But that does mean that in a few years, we will have two teenage daughters, as well as my wife in the house. And when I brought that up to one of my friends, she had said that me and my son should take up camping maybe once a month or so. Um, because things tend to sync up. But anyways, um, that's a rabbit hole that I don't want to go down on this episode, so I'm just gonna go in order of what I see on my screen. So, Porcho, how have you been since the last. Actually, we want to take this time. If you want to introduce yourself, you're welcome to. You've been on the podcast multiple times, so you don't have to if you don't want to or if you just want to.

He's a proud member of the Playwell Network as well.

Play well network.

We came back from the dead.

I come and go there.

There was. There indeed was something new under that porch. And it was a dude mine.

It came out of his hole.

It was a disgusting dude mine came

out of his hole.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm going good down here in Australia. All the way down here. And how have I been since last month?

Good.

Yeah, fine. Today is Lucy's birthday. So another birthday we can talk about.

Happy birthday.

6. So 10% of the way to 60. Oh my goodness.

So fast.

Oh, man.

Yeah, she's going good. Atticus is going good, Lauren's good.

And.

Yeah, that's it. Next person.

All right, well, I'm glad to hear it. Papa Wargs. This is your first time here again. You don't have to introduce yourself if you don't want to, but you're welcome to if you'd like to, but. How you doing?

Yeah, pretty good.

Yeah.

My name is David Wargo. I don't, I mean, I don't think I'm interesting enough for anybody to follow me too closely. So people have my name, address practically if they want to send me things.

Wesley Rye.

But yeah, my name is David. I've been a listener for quite a while. I heard about you guys through the Reformed Gamers podcast when it was shutting down and they were. And somebody asked like, is there any other reformed gaming podcast to listen to? And like, like one left. I think so. Yeah. Listening to it for a while and I've been pretty good in a big transition in my life. I might have seen it on Discord is sharing about it. I've been in addiction recovery ministry for the last four years and full time ministry for the last nine and I'm taking a step back from that finish next week and I'm gonna go do more of a regular job and do seminary actually, so in the fall. So moving on. Lots of changes in our lives, but I'm excited. I have a wife who've been married nine years this summer and we have a three year old boy who just turned three like last week. So I don't know if that's all you're looking for, but that's down here. That Syrian, you know, Presbyterian, supposed to be proud of it, I think.

Yes, yes, yes.

Nice.

And I'm going under care of my presbytery, which makes me feel so we,

we are all, we are better than all of them.

That's right. It's like that Ron Swanson meme. I, I have a reformed Baptist friend sent me a meme where he's like, when a Presbyterian goes to Baptist church. Can I help you with anything? I know more than you.

I know more than you. I saw that one and I just shook my head and laughed and I was like, it's funny because. Yeah, yeah, kind of. I could see that.

I don't know more yet. That's why I'm going to seminary. Then I'll know more.

Yes, Sweet.

Awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you. That does sound like a lot going on at once, but it's also exciting, so it's cool.

Dave and I have kind of been talking a little bit behind the scenes, and I almost got him to join the United States Postal Service, but I

was very close, and then they told me. They said, you're just. Your job you're getting is super flexible. I'm like, whoa, super flexible. What does that mean? They're like, I'm like, do I choose my hours? Like, no, no, no. It's flexible as a. We tell your. You flex where we need you to, and it's gonna be. I'm like, oh. And they're like, and it's gonna be Sundays. I'm like, oh, yeah. Like, they're like, yeah. Like, oh, okay.

That corpo speak is crazy.

Yeah. So now I'm going to be a custodian instead out of high school, which I'm excited about.

Gotcha.

Still government work at least.

Yeah, there you go. Get them taxpayer dollars work if you

don't have to do it twice.

I don't know.

Anyways. Well, cool. Hey, dig the basement. You've been on, like you said before, but if you want again, share whatever you want, but how you doing?

It's our. It's our buddy with, like, probably the best voice to ever grace this.

Oh, absolutely. By far.

100.

Well, allow me to reintroduce myself. It's dig the basement.

I.

You know what? I tried to put can you dig the basement, but I ran out of characters, so. Yeah.

Anyway.

Yeah, I don't hate that at all.

He's just being a bigger person.

Yeah, no, I'm doing all right. Yeah. A lot of. A lot of things have been going down. I had a couple conversations with. With Josh in the background, just about church stuff and being. Being a part of a new church. We'll say that it's not necessarily a plant, but it is a new church, and there's a lot of work that has to be done on the ground. So, you know, we're just talking us picking Josh's brain on various things. And I have since stepped into kind of an on off teaching role, which is. Yeah, generally outside of my wheelhouse at church. But, you know, I've been doing that more and more. It's kind of forcing me to, you know, really hunker down and study a lot more and, you know, answer questions and, you know, just be able to feed God's people on a Sunday morning.

So.

Cool.

And I. I just realized I I. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I'm the only one here that has an adult child,

probably. Yeah, I think so.

Yeah. So, like, anytime I hear you guys say, like, oh, teenagers, and you know, we got to prepare for them, just

like, that's full of them.

Orchard is an adult child. Does that count?

Out of nowhere with a SL.

Yeah, but y.

It's easy then one. One adult out of four kids. The rest are 10 and under. So I got to go. I got to go through this three more times, but I'm prepared this time, so.

Yeah, that's what you say. Like, you know, as. As the oldest of four, I think my parents were kind of like in that spot where they were like, yeah, I'm ready for this. And then the next one happens and it's like, but I'm not ready for this. Yeah, but no, that's cool. How old is your oldest now?

20.

Wow, man.

20.

That's wild.

Man has. My man has a job. He's on his third car. That's a whole story. He's actually in. He's actually in like a year program at what's it called? Universal Technical Institute for Auto Mechanics. So, you know, okay for himself.

Nice.

Hey, get in the trades, man. Get in the trades. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool.

Sweet. Well, good to hear from you, Spike. You want to. How. How have you been?

I've been pretty good. It's been a little bit since I was on last, but not a whole lot of news. I think the. The main thing is probably been running with this next edition thing. Just ran our first.

Yeah.

Expo last Saturday.

Nice.

Went pretty well handed out, pretty much all my business cards. Still got one or two left. But yeah, I went pretty well. Talked to the organizers and I got another one coming December, and I'll probably be cool doing that. And aside from that, you know, things are still going good. I mentioned in the Discord a while back, the last time I was on, we were still kind of dealing with some of the issues with my son as far as his health. Last week he had one of his scans and it came back and they. The doctor pretty much said that he's pretty much in the clear. He wants to see him again in six. Six months just to make sure. But yeah, all the issues that he had apparently have. He's grown out of which doctor said it doesn't happen very often. He. He attributed it to supernatural. So that was kind of cool to know that, you know, everybody praying did something so,

so cool.

So thank you guys for that.

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

Also, is there gonna be more competition on expedition if you keep this up? Because I like, kind of being able to easily be in second place.

Well, I would like more people to play. I guess I could just, like, leave it to just you, but, you know, that kind of defeats the purpose.

I'm sorry.

Yeah, that's a little sad.

Nice. Nice. Awesome, man. Well, Mark, you were on our last episode. So how have you been since. Since then?

Oh, it's been so long. It's hard to even. I don't actually know what to say. It's been good.

Yeah.

We've just cruising along. It's been. I feel like I was in a busier few weeks of work, and today kind of like, wow. Things really slowed down in a way. That's really nice.

Oh, so, like that.

I'll take it. I don't think that will last for that long, but I'll take it.

Sure.

And yeah, so doing good. Overall, I think we're still. We've got our van. It's still a nice van.

That's right.

That's kind of still our biggest, biggest minivan mafia minivan minivan fam. We're having a great time. So, yeah, kind of where I'm at. Awesome.

Awesome.

Good to be back.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's great to have you and thank you all for, you know, sharing with us what's been going on in life. I think we have a few more experiences that we want to share. We played it, watch it, read it through. Now we're sharing XP with you. Critical hits, good stuff to declare.

Fresh start.

It's. That's right. XP Share. Where we share experiences that we've had recently. They're just really. It's just the cream of the crop. We've got one thing that we want to share with everyone. So we'll go around same order. Nate, what do you want to share? You got a video game I've been playing. You got media. What's. What's up?

It's. I'm actually gonna, like. There's a Facebook account that I have been following. I'm sure he's in other places, but it's like one of those weird things that, like, popped up algorithm, and I'm kind of. I'm low key obsessed with it. It's called Meat Dad. It's a dude who is a butcher, and he basically shows you how to turn, like, giant pieces of meat that you can buy at, like, Costco for, like, 30 bucks into, like, you know, 100 bucks worth of, like, steaks. And different cuts and stuff like that. Now I think he's an actual butcher, but it's just been kind of like one of those things where I. I just. I like the videos. It's, like, cool. It's like. It's one of those things. It's like, I could do this. Yeah, I could, like. Yeah, I could do this. You know, and it's just been one of those things where. Yeah, it's. It's not. I mean, it would definitely take practice because I. And. And some investment in really nice knives because, like, it's one of those things where I'm watching him sometimes do the cuts and everything else, and I'm like, those knives look expensive. They're expensive. So. But yeah, I just. It's. It's one of those things. It's. It's very, like, practical, but also kind of informative and entertaining and it's. Yeah. So meet dad. Yeah, I think it's. It's weird, but I'm just. I. Every. Every time I watch one of his videos, I'm like, this is pretty stinking cool. So. Yeah.

Nice.

It's. It's not sexy at all. It's really boring. Yeah, it's like. I think it's interesting and I think it's good content. I'm just saying it's not like. It's not like a cool new show or anything like that. It's just like, hey, this dude will teach you how to, like, kind of be a do it yourself butcher. And that's kind of rad.

Yeah. So, yeah, the more, you know, man. And I do enjoy meat. I enjoy cooked animal flesh. It's delicious.

So, like, a little bit of salt, pepper, garlic.

It's true. It's true. Nice. Nice. Well, so I was going to say ring fit, adventure, because. And I've talked about this so many other times, but I pulled it out the other day and I'm sore. So, like, if you actually do, you know, if you try and use it as a workout tool, it can definitely get you that. But you just said something more practical, so I'll share something more practical if you have a Buffalo Wild Wings near you. Right now, they are doing bottomless appetizers for $10 for a group of four. And it's only $3 more if there's more than four. So my family and I went and did that. Just ate a bunch of fried pickles and chips in queso. We did order some wings, of course, but yeah, it's kind of. I saw. I actually saw it from the Babylon Bee. Because they were like, this is how you go bankrupt. But I. We took advantage.

Yeah.

So sure hope they don't.

I really like Buffalo. Yeah.

Yeah.

We don't go often, but that definitely brought us. And I will tell you, we may or may not be back once or twice or three times before the promotion ends in the next month.

You will be making them personally.

Well, it's not worth it if I don't bring the family. Well, they also do this, like, trivia thing that you connect with your phone and, like, my son was super into it and you get points and. Anyways, so we had a good time. So anyways, that's. But that's my one thing. It is not ring Fit Adventure. So, Porcho, what you got to share?

I was just trying to see where my closest Buffalo Wild wings restaurant is.

Oh, no. How long to ride your bike there?

Well, I. I've never tried riding across the North Pacific Ocean, but I'm willing

to give it a shot just to.

Just to make it to the Californian one.

I suppose maybe not so practical if you.

If you. If you dig, then, you know, you might make it to the other side.

That's true.

That is genius.

We've never disproven that.

Maybe like, 100 meters or so.

Like, someone's, like, where you dig into China. No. Buffalo wild wings, baby.

Right in the middle of it.

What have I got to share? Over the last five weeks, probably I've been listening. Started listening to blurry creatures a bit. I've been enjoying that podcast. So mine, there are perspective on certain things, and they just get a lot of interesting guests on them. They have a big, like. Yeah, they have heaps of episodes. So they've been gone since 2020, and I think they do it pretty much weekly.

Oh, wow.

And I think, like, the first 10 is mainly to do with Bigfoot and a little bit about giant bones and stuff like that. And, yeah, from there, it's just lots of different stuff. So one episode I listened to this week was about these missionaries who lived in Indonesia most of their life, their family. And these guys have just moved back to the US and, yeah, we're talking about that a fair bit. And

what's it called again?

Porch Blurry Creatures.

Blurry creatures.

Okay.

Yeah. I have a friend who listens who talks about that all the time.

Okay.

Yeah, no, it's good stuff. And yeah, another one with an author or pastor, I think. Yeah, author, I think John Bevere.

Okay.

Hadn't heard of him before, but that was a pretty good episode. With him. Yeah, it's worth a listen if you like Haunted Cosmos. Different sort of different format of it.

Is it as creepy as Haunted Cosmos? Because when I listen to that, that actually, like, stole sleep for me for, like, longer than I like to admit, if I'm being honest.

No, well, the episodes I've listened to so far, not so much, but yeah, Haunted Cosmos definitely has for me in the past

listen to a little bit blurry creatures I dropped off, but I got into them way early on. Okay. And they've got kind of a, like, they've got kind of a Christian bent. I feel like Haunted Cosmos does a better job of integrating, like, kind of making.

Oh, definitely.

Yeah.

Like faith more the center. But it's still a lot of interesting stuff, but. Nice, nice.

I'll have to check it out. I actually. It's been on my podcast list for a long time. I've just never actually listened to it. So with your recommendation, off to check it out for real this time. All right, Dave, how about you? What's one thing you've been into lately?

Yeah, let's see. Obviously I've been playing digging a hole, but aside from that, I thought I had gotten out of it, but it pulled me back in. Diablo 4, I've been playing a ton of that again.

Okay.

With the. So the expansion pack, I didn't buy the first one and then when the second one came out, they combined them together for one price for just like 40 bucks. Oh, that gives you like three classes and two expansions and all this other endgame stuff. I'm like, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. And then I'm like, well, I still have $40 in gift money. So I bought it and then didn't know if I'd get back into it. And I've been playing it probably too much at this point. But like, I'm into like some of the new end game systems and so forth that are pretty interesting. And playing as a paladin is always, always fun in games. I love Holy Nights and they added that.

Yeah.

I don't know. I kind of view that game, if you like, think of a story heavy game as like something like a good meal. I kind of view Diablo a little bit like junk food when I'm playing it. It's a little bit like I'm just killing demons to get shiny things that pop out and make squishing sounds as they have lights. Go up in the sky and get one with a slightly bigger number and then do it all over again. But something about it just pulled me back in, so we'll see how long that lasts. But it has derailed me a little bit from my. That list, whatever that's called. Locked and loaded list has derailed me a little bit. But I have been enjoying it a lot again. So nice. Diablo 4 a little bit turn my brain off, especially as I think of everything in my life changing.

Sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I. Dude, my brother. My brother is like one of my pretty consistent, like gaming partners and he just picked up the. Well, he pre ordered the. The DLC and he keeps trying to like talk me into it every once in a while and I'm like, like, listen, I love me some Diablo and I really. Diablo 4 is like, in some ways I think it's like the perfect blend of like two and three.

Sure.

Yeah.

But did you.

So you played it quite a bit then?

Yeah, I. I beat the base game.

Yeah.

Okay, nice. So I think it has improved significantly. I played a lot of the base game and at this point coming back to expansions, like this is actually quite a bit of improvement.

Yeah, yeah, I played. I played a few seasons post,

post

release and I thought it was fine. Like, I like some of the modes they added, but yeah, they just didn't have anything that was like stick enough. But I've heard that the new content is like, they pretty much nailed it. Kind of smashed it out.

Yeah.

So.

And they redid the whole skill trees and everything. Yeah, pretty significantly.

So.

Yeah.

But I have Destiny.

I'm back. I need help. Yeah, I tried the Destiny thing and decided Diablo is kind of like my closest thing.

Dude, the thing is like, you need to just like, like again. I will, I will Sherpa you through anything in Destiny.

We've.

I've talked about this, so.

That's true. I should try it again. I have all the expansions now.

Yeah, shoot.

Yeah, well, except for like whatever these new ones are, like the major expansions,

they got like these Edge of Fate and Renegades.

Yeah, yeah.

Oh, cool.

Yeah.

Nice. Nice. Well, if you need. Yeah. Another hole to fall down to, Destiny's there for you. All right. So can you dig the basement? I'm trying to. I'm trying to think what you said earlier. What's one thing that you'd like to share?

So, no pun intended. I've been going down the financial rabbit hole.

Okay.

So I've. I've been on YouTube quite a bit listening to a lot of just guys that are really good with finance and business and investments and Everything. And one guy I particularly like is. His name. Is his name of his channel was Gabe Bolt to B U L T. I think the guy's a Christian, but he's. He's more of a minimalist, but.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So he'll have a lot of. A lot of videos on like 10 things you don't need or things that are, you know, that are a waste or whatever. But he'll also talk about the money mistakes that you can make or like there's. There's rules in finance. Some people have like the 75, 10, 20 or the 2410, but basically how to manage your finances, how to, you know, get financially free and everything and, you know, just ways to think about like business and investing and so forth. So that's been a really interesting thing for me because lately I've been getting like, really serious just about our future finances. So it's, you know, I'm. I'm at work and I'm listening to like three hours of just people talk about numbers. And it's like, I never thought I'd be doing this, but I'm taking away the principles and I'm like, okay, yeah, last week I actually sat down at. I should say I put in work, but I kind of did. I had chat GPT create for me a. An Excel spreadsheet. And I took all of our things. And, you know, that was the painful part, just putting in all of our expenses and things like that. And then, you know, even some of the consumer debt that we have and, you know, you can make a prompt for different ways of paying it off by date and everything. So, you know, it's just been trying to create a system here just so we can, you know, automate and make everything easy and then know where are we putting our money and all of that. So, yeah, that's. That's really what I've been into. Lady.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Super cool.

Nice. That's.

That's kind of interesting because, like, I've actually been. We've kind of been doing that here too. Like, Megan and I have sort of been reworking our finances. And honestly, like, it's as much as I'll bag on him. Dave Ramsey's like, foundational principles, like Those like the 10 steps or whatever he has, I've found to be like, really workable and usable for at least a starting point. So too, it's like, you know, because I. But Caleb Hammer, while not very family friendly, is hilarious. He's. He's not a believer and he does more of like, take down stuff where, like, he has, like, people who are really bad with their money, and then he kind of just like he fixes their budgets but also makes fun of them. So if you want something that's a little.

You talk about that guy.

Yeah. If you want something a little spicier and to sort of like, laugh at while you're listening to, like, people talk, like money info. He's not very nice, but he's very

funny, so really hits the nail on the head.

I like it. No.

Oh, I hate that.

Oh,

wishes to wield the band hammer right now. But speaking of which. Yes, Spike? What. What do you have?

Well, since we're only bringing one thing, I'm not going to talk about how I just finished Donkey Kong Bonanza last night, and I'm not going to talk about how I did kind of like the. The mechanics. It got a little repetitive sometimes, but I'm not going to talk about that. Okay, gotcha. Yeah, the ending was really great, but again, not going to talk about it. What I am going to talk about is I've been listening to Moonwalking with Einstein. The book by Joshua Foer, I think, is how you say his name. Yeah, I read a book by Kevin Horsley years ago called Unlimited Memory. And it's kind of a. It's in the same vein as that, but this is more telling a story. You get some tidbits of how they. They do it. But long story short, it's. It's about basically a reporter that he learns about this. This memory championship. And he thinks these people are all, you know, these crazy, you know, smart people being able to memorize all these different things, like, you know, 10,000 numbers of PI and things like that. Turns out they're just normal people. And he's able to kind of gather some of the tricks that they. They have. And long story short, I think by the end of it, I haven't gotten there yet, but I'm pretty sure, like, this guy has won the championship just by learning from these people within, like, a year of training. And this is a true story and it's really interesting. It talks a lot about, like, memory palaces and things like that, which. Or the Method of Loci or Loki or whatever you call it. But it's really useful, some of these techniques. I've used some of them in the past to try to memorize scripture and things like that, and basically talks a lot about mnemonics and like, creating mental pictures to memorize things. And. Yeah, it's a really interesting Listen, he does get a little crude sometimes, but if. If you don't mind a little bit of that. It's. It's pretty interesting. And I do think there's some practical stuff in there. Pretty. Pretty interesting stuff. So that's. That's what I've been. What I've been into.

Nice.

But I'm not going to talk about Donkey Kong or how I did really enjoy it. It's pretty good. Yeah. There you go.

Yep.

Is it because you're digging all over the place in that game?

You really do. It actually really is a game about living. That's what we're talking about today, right? Donkey Kong.

You guys are. You guys are digging holes for yourselves.

There you go. You're getting it.

Wait. It was kind of fun.

Oh, no, I'm not. I'm not being funny.

I don't know how you're gonna get out of that hole.

We got jetpacks.

Dug it for yourself.

The jetpack is out.

These jokes are just the pits.

I thought they were dynamite.

I did get that achievement today.

All right, Mark, let's make this quick. What do you have to share?

My one thing is F1.23. So got 23 F1 things. So I got my racing rig that's having a fun time with it. I bought a used PlayStation 4 Pro to use with it because it was a PlayStation formatted Logitech thing. And so I got that last year. Kind of, like, I played for a good bit and then kind of fell off of it. And now I'm trying to get kind of more back into it. It's a big setup kind of to do, so I'm kind of. I've got myself going, or. I started a career in F123, which is the last one that came out on previous Generations. I've kind of gotten the habit of, like, doing a race every weekend, so kind of going along with the current season of Formula one. It's a bit odd to go with this season of the actual Formula Formula one racing because there's been these pretty significant regulation changes, and the cars are really different in a way.

Oh, okay.

And so it's. It's a big shift, like, more hybrid of the battery power is more 50, 50. And it's, like, kind of had mixed results. It has made for a lot of, like. A lot of, like, passing that has not happened. But it's like one guy passes. Runs out of battery. The guy passes him back and then runs out of battery and just kind of do that. Yo, yo. Which is like if you don't know what's going on, it's really exciting. If you can't do it, do you know what's going on? It's like this is not really, really passing. I'm more of the opinion of like well they were just in a straight line before that not passing. So at least it's something a little new. Anyway. That was not my, my secret second thing, my actual Formula 1 max with one thing being F123. I've like made my career. You can do, you can make your own team, your own racing team. I've like based it off my real life job which is kind of fun. You can have change the colors and stuff. So it's, it's been fun to, to chip away at that. I'm like, I don't know, fifth way through the season they make it. I thought going into it it would be a lot more complicated and a lot more like stat stuff and tracking like you would if the team. But you can even just do like pick the things I need to do for me and you can kind of just press that button and it, it tells you here's how your team should spend the next two weeks and you increases your chassis or whatever which makes you a little bit faster or whatever. And so you don't. It, it is there for you but it's taking a lot of like the deep thought work out of it which is actually really nice because I can, you can kind of just have fun racing. So yeah, I have a good time with it if, yeah, I, I thought if you like cars at all, if you think you get into racing. Erasing was a lot of fun. These logitech ones are probably 300 or so but it's like it's got the force feedback so it feels, it kind of pushes against a little bit, makes it a little more tactile. So that's crazy.

Nice. Nice. That sounds like fun. That sounds like fun. I don't know that I would invest into it but it does sound like it would be a lot of fun.

Yeah, I thought it sounded like fun but I don't know about $300 worth of fun for me personally, but.

No, that's fair. I, I did get this one used from like a friend or selling his whole, his like whole setup and a chair for like 250.

Nice.

So that was so it's like that's cool all this. I'm looking at it right now. It would be like 600 to buy, right? So this was, it was a deal. I could not pass up because I've been looking at getting wheels and yeah, it was time.

That's awesome. That's awesome.

Cool.

That's what I got.

All right, well, appreciate you guys sharing before we jump into, you know, before we fall down this rabbit hole about this game, apparently, that we all played together, which I actually have a question specifically for Porcho when we start off with that conversation. Before that, we typically have an ad break for our friends who are with us amongst us in the Playwell Network. We've got a bunch of different podcasts there that, with our friends that we put out where we just seek to, you know, find better ways to dig into the things that we love, how we can play well and things like that. So here's a word from one of them.

Hey. Wow, it's radical that you're listening to this ad. I'm Nick, the high energy host of Nothing New under the Porch. This podcast has been going through the golden years and it's probably getting closer to rock bottom now. But that's no reason not to listen. You'll learn heaps about me about playing games. Well, about international guests through insightful interview questions. And you'll learn about games that don't exist. So come join me under the porn.

I'm desperate. I promise you'll like it. I'm desperate and hungry.

So listen. And we're back. Okay, so tonight we're going to be talking about. This is a book club episode about a game about digging a hole, which is sort of. It's one of those interesting little things. It popped up in our discord and I think, like Mark, you were probably one of the prime instigators here. And then Isaac could, who couldn't join us tonight. I think he was a. Also a fairly large champion of it as well. And it kind of became the. An impromptu book club nomination nominee kind of thing where it's like, hey. And it's, it's one of those things where online there's a fair bit of interesting discourse around this game, most of it, and we can talk about some of that. But it's just one of those things where this sort of as offering a little bit of a brief overview of. It's just like this is like the quintessential indie game where even looking at the history where Cyberwave, the developer, spent two weeks sort of just making this thing and it does you. You do pretty much one thing and it's got an incredibly satisfying loop and it's, it's interesting. I think at the Very least, like, it's. It's. It's. It's interesting. And so there's. I think there's a good bit of, like, commentary slash meta narrative conversation that. That we can probably, like, dig into a little bit.

Yeah, it's a good one.

Shut up. Just. Just, like, I try so hard to be nice. I try so hard to be nice. And, you know, people are like, why. Why is Nate so mean to Josh? And what they don't just keep piling it on. Yeah, Like, the. The Arthur Gif is just like the. The clenching hand.

Just the f.

But.

Well, I. I appreciate your reasoning behind why you wanted to play this game, but I wanted to ask straight out, Porcho, since you from on. On high on your HR podium or. Or what. What is that called? Pedestal? No, the throne. That's what I was thinking of from your HR Throne. You decreed it that this book club would be. And it was. So we all played it too. He actually does have powers. Why. Why this game and why. Why did you. Why did you find this? Because my understanding is that you had already played this game. So what is it about this game that you wanted us all to have a conversation around? Like, why this one in particular? That's my question.

I don't.

He's making it up right now.

I know. I wasn't the one who brought it up.

That's true.

I just agreed and was like, yeah, we could do that.

Okay.

Yeah, well, I'll note. Dude, this was my patron pick, and it didn't get the votes, but Porcho did. Did graciously decide, which I was even involved in this. In this process of deciding to be a book club episode. So I feel like I. I still got what I wanted. Here we are talking about a game about digging. Digging a hole.

I just. I just want to make it known I'm here for the live entertainment.

Okay. Yeah, so. And the reason I. Okay, so I'll. I'll give you a little peek behind the curtain is that when. When Porcho said that someone had suggested I had actually thrown it out there because we were trying to figure out what we want to do for this book club thing, and there was conversation about this game. I had not played this game, but I heard rumblings from Mark. I'd heard rumblings from Porcho as well. So I was like, you know, you could even just choose a game and make it, you know, quick. If you want a quick turnaround, have it just be a short game. Like a game about digging a hole, and you ran with it. So from my perspective, it was very intriguing. Like, okay, yeah, those people want to. Want to play this game.

And, well, there was a semi democratic process to this because, like, there. There's. There's kind of like a hidden council that handles some of this stuff. And, you know, we will not. There's like sort of an Illuminati cigar

smoke, chilled room for the greatest good.

It is a smoky, smoky, dimly lit discord channel our conversation. But it was one of those things where you. You floated it out there, and then there were a couple other people who sort of seconded and thirded it. And then Porto was just like, sold to the man in the funny hat.

And then I brought it up to everyone in the book club channel, and they're like, you're joking, right? So that's why I just wanted to clarify a couple of minutes ago, that wasn't me. In case everyone in the servers wanted to fling dirt at me.

No, they just want to bury you.

Bury me? Live in a box.

But, yeah, I didn't see a problem with. With us taking this on because. Yeah, well, it's very book club material in the sense that you can get it done so quickly, have a great time, because it's very video gamey and lots of people can join in. As we see right here, we have quite a big showing

this.

It probably is our most successful book club because there were even people that wanted to join that were not able to this evening. So. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, well done. I'm just curious why.

Breaking all kinds of grow.

That was awesome.

Oh, wow. Nice.

Just came out of nowhere. Snuck.

That wasn't awesome. That was terrible. And I hate it. I'm glad that you all enjoy my discomfort.

I mean, there's a whole brand of comedy that's all about discomfort. I mean, it's not why everyone loves the Office. You just, like, watch how uncomfortable Michael Scott is.

It's true.

It's actually like one. I. I actually struggle with the Office because of that.

Okay, fair enough.

Yeah. Like, I enjoy it up to a certain point, but I'm just not the awkward discomfort, like, uncomfortable thing. I actually empathize. As heartless as I might actually seem, I empathize deeply with Michael because I, too, can be an extremely awkward individual.

Oh, yeah.

And I'm just like, oh, buddy, now. Not to those lengths or those. But yeah, I was gonna say something.

I'm proud of you that you can recognize that. That you're not just sticking your head in the sand. So.

Oh.

So a game about digging a Hole.

Can I say something? On the one hand, I think it fulfills the insatiable male urge to dig holes. I actually think there's something there. I don't know if you guys had. We had a bottomless sandbox growing up because our whole yard was just like, sand. A lot of people have, like, their little plastic stuff at the bottom. And I remember as a kid, I just really judged those families having plastic to stop them from being able to keep digging. And, like, that was very harsh in my heart and mind to those families. Like, what's wrong with them? We would literally dig holes and bury, like, you guys know those, like, fake. It's like, basically a fake kitchen set where it's like an oven and a sink and everything. We would dig holes and just bury those things in our sandbox and stuff like that. Just spent hours. So I was playing this game again today, and I turned to my son, who was sitting there with his controller. He's three, and like, Cedric. That's his name, like, Cedric, does this fulfill your insatiable urge to dig holes? And he says, yeah, pretty well.

Glowing reviews from Center. So five out of five.

I don't know. That was like, one of my first thoughts of, like, why do I like this game so much? Oh, it reminds me of childhood.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, That's. I'm sure that's part of it, too. I did have somewhat of a similar experience in that when I would play it, the times that I played it were around the family, and they were very intrigued by it for the most part. There was a lull towards the end of it, and then when I explained to them how it ended, they were not as intrigued. And we had some more conversation around that, but it certainly did, you know, just that, you know, my kids are into Minecraft also, so this is kind of in the same wheelhouse, you know, gathering ore from the dirt and then selling it back, you know, using it for other things. So, yeah, they weren't unfamiliar with the concept, but they did enjoy it. As did I. As did I. I don't know how much, because this is such a short game. I mean, I'm sure we will get into some spoiler territory later, which is kind of. Which will be odd.

Is there. Which will be.

But I have lots of thoughts on the spoilery stuff, and I actually think it relates to some scriptures and, like, scriptural ideas, even though it's maybe a slight stress because it's such a comedic take on it. But there is stuff there I just.

I don't like I don't know that we really. I guess we can have sort of a spoiler free conversation, but the reality is like, I think narratively speaking, there's just not a lot of material to spoil.

Yeah, there just.

There really isn't. It doesn't. I did some digging around the other day just trying to see if there was like.

Yeah, you did.

Oh, shut up. I'm so angry right now. Like, I'm so. I'm seething internally. Just, Just cut.

Just cover his transgression with their.

I was trying to do some research yesterday in. In prep and I was looking for. I was just looking to see if there was like lore or.

Sure.

I was actually looking also for just like the. The creator's intent. Because I actually think, especially in the conversation, just like games is art, but art in general, authorial intent. Even though we live in sort of an era where like death of the author is sort of a prevalent mode of thinking, actually I'm a big proponent. Authorial intent matters. And so like. And really what Cyberwave had to say was just like, I just kind of wanted to make something that was fun. And I think it's. It doesn't have to say a lot. It's kind of. It's just self explanatory and like, whoop, you know, there you go. And didn't really offer anything substantial other than, well, just like, I just kind of want to make something fun and that could be enjoyed relatively inexpensively. And. Yeah, last.

Yeah, but so you mentioned that you don't want to, you know, the narrative. There's not like this huge narrative. You were looking for lore. For anyone who's listening who has not played this game, what happens is that you turn it on and you see a car drive up to a house. The house is being sold for $10,000 and it says there's treasure in the backyard. So then you take control of this person in your backyard. And you have an automatic shovel. You can dig into the ground, into your backyard. You can collect rocks and sell them, and then you can upgrade your shovel. You can get a jetpack to get out of your hole when you start digging down deep. And you can, you can do. All you're doing is digging a hole. Hey, that's the name of the game. And selling what you find, upgrading what you have so that you can find this treasure. That's, that's.

That's it. You upgrade your shovel, you upgrade your backpack, you upgrade your battery that powers your automatic shovel, and you upgrade your jetpack and inventory.

Was the Other one.

Yeah, yeah. Your backpack.

That's right.

Oh, yeah.

So the thing you said multiple times.

Backpack. Backpack, jetpack. Backpack, jetpack. Backpack, jetpack. Backpack, jetpack.

Yeah. I wonder if he wears the backpack on, like. If he does the, like, the Gen Alpha thing where he wears the backpack on the front and the jetpack on the back.

Is that a thing?

There is definitely some.

You.

You use this word, I believe, at the beginning of the episode, some chicanery going on in that. There is no. There's. Some of the things in this game are not logical. Like, for instance, you dig under some dirt and over it and then around it, and it's just floating in the air, and it's. That's just the nature of the game. So I wouldn't think too hard about where his backpack is located.

Speaking of things that aren't logical.

Yeah.

I mean, you start this game up, you should already know it's a setup. Who sells a house for 10 GS?

This is treasure in the backyard.

This is a setup.

Well, and I mean, in this economy, I might buy it anyway, even if it is a setup. So that's worth it.

Yeah, yeah, but. And then. Then immediately proceeds to destroy, like, devalue his property by mutilating his backyard.

He's like, oh, he makes way more than 10,000 digging down for sale.

I have so much, like, all the ore and stuff you get on the

way down, and diamonds and. Yeah, yeah.

One of the dumb things I appreciate is you sell it into the computer. You just go to your desktop, sell the rocks, and they're gone. You get the money instantly.

And I just love how the economy is just perfectly stable, so it's. You know, and that there are. Well, and just like, there are many stupid people on the Internet. Internet who will buy useless things. You can just sell rocks for a dollar.

No, that's true.

It's. You know, if I tried to sell rocks for a dollar on the Internet, I don't know that it would go nearly as well for, you know, as it does live.

People in Florida will buy rocks because there are no rocks. When I lived there for about four years.

Huh.

I came. I came from New Hampshire, and I was trying to find a rock. I'm like, I'll just find a rock. I'll just walk outside and, like, that's where.

That's where I live.

Yeah.

Do you buy your rocks online, Dorian? You're like, I need some rocks.

Rocks, man. Just a little.

He's like.

He's like, it's sad because it's true.

I. I may need to buy a bunch of rocks for my. For my driveway. I. I don't know. You know, I'm still figuring out what I want to do out there, but.

Yeah.

So you're probably just selling them to a bunch of Floridians.

Honestly, at least they're only a dollar each. Cheap driveway.

Yeah.

Dude, you said there was no lore.

Oh, okay, so I'm sure everyone did, but I'm just gonna ask. Did anyone else try and fly out of your backyard?

No.

No one else did. Are you kidding me? That's, like, one of the first things that I did.

I like boundaries, I guess.

Yeah, it's all blocked off.

You can only go so high. I didn't try to fly over to the Navy, so I just assumed you couldn't.

Okay. Yeah, I try. As soon as I was able to fly up, I was like, yeah, get me out of here. Nope. No, it's just invisible walls.

This is your purgatory. You're there.

Yep. Yep. You bought this house. You will dig.

That's not what the game is about, Josh.

It's not about flying upwards.

A game about flying to your neighbor's backyards.

A game about digging a hole to. A game about flying into your neighborhood. Electric boogaloo. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't know. See, but this is where. I mean, yes, there are. We can have some. Some deep conversations about some of the implications of this game, but is there much more to talk about before we spoil the little bit that there is there?

Well.

And just.

Just.

Just. I know Spike kind of came in there, says, you said there's no lore. What I said is there's no canon. Like, what I intended is that there's no. He was official.

He was making fun about us digging into this so hard.

Oh, well, you know, but there is no official canon. I. Actually, I. I did check, because I. Yeah, I was like. I checked my sources, but there is no official canon. There are bits and pieces, and there's lots of theories, but there's no official canon. Like, there's no. Like, this is actually what's going on.

Yeah.

Which I think is par for the course, because to establish any sort of meaningful lore probably would have taken more effort than it actually took to build this game.

Yeah.

And I don't know about you guys, but to me, it felt that way playing it, especially after you finish the game. Like, oh, okay, okay. Like, you could. You could feel. I could feel the authorial intent of, like, no, you're just here to have fun. Like, Just, you know, don't think about this too hard. So. So to me, theorizing about lore is so, like, pointless because even the creator of the game didn't care. So I don't know. That's just where I stand, because I don't. That's just not typically something that I do. I like narrative experiences, but if there was no intended narrative experience, like, I'm not going to spend time thinking about it. But anyways, that's my two cents. Mark, there was something you were trying to mention earlier.

So I had kind of the story of how I got into this game and kind of why I wanted to even focus on it a little bit too. And it's like all good stories. It starts with the Wii U. So I got the Wii U for release for Smash Brothers, and then this was back in college. And so then sometime along there there was a humble bundle that came out for the WWII U and 3Ds where, you know, somebody paid like seven bucks. You got 12 games. I really wanted bit trip runner two was one of those. But also in that pack was Steamworld Dig. And so yeah, it was. That was not on my radar at all. But like, I'll try this out. I have it now and I played it and I loved it and like, it became one of my favorite games of all time. It's really the first time that I really noticed and appreciated a gameplay loop that like Steamworld Dig. Some of this game, you dig down, you get ore, you come back up, you sell the ore, you buy upgrade and you can dig deeper and you just keep it going until you reach the end. And so that like, both that just like helped me recognize like, oh, a lot of these things I like in games are this loop of, of how you build this in. That's a very obvious loop. So Fast forward to 2025. There's this small indie game about, called a game about digging a hole. It comes out on Steam, I hear about from a few podcasts listen to and sounds like this sounds like Sum World dig, but in 3D and like a little simpler, but like it's five bucks. What's not to love? I'll definitely check this out. So I was playing through it, really enjoyed it, had a lot of fun. It's like just a great loop of you dig down, you get your ore, you come back up, you sell the ore into your computer and then you get better stuff. You can go deeper. I played it over like two or three sessions and then so to avoid getting to spoilers here, the ending definitely did not undercut my appreciation for gameplay loops in it and definitely didn't make me question why I even enjoy video games at all. That's not what happened here. But it did make me it. Okay, I could do that, but we can't go too far down yet. And it did make me kind of like question of. Of like, what is what isn't in games that make a good gameplay loop. And I'm like, is a good gameplay loop enough? Because it really, like there is, There is narrative to this in a way that's like, I didn't expect even that much narrative and that's like the spoil at the end of the game. But like, I thought I was coming into this as just a game that like, yeah, it's a good gameplay loop. That's all you really need. And I was kind of blindsided by it not being that. And it's. Yeah. So I'm wandering around this question a lot, but like, what is it? Like, is a good gameplay loop enough within a game or do you need more? Like, we're talking about, like, we want lore out of this game. There's really not really that much lore to it. But yeah. What do y' all thought? Think

I. I think it would depend on how long the game is. If it's just like one loop, like, this is great. A perfect game for just like a simple, fun gameplay loop that you could just. I mean, like I said, I tried to beat it as fast as I could this last time, hoping to get that achievement. And it's 38 minutes as opposed to the 30 that you needed. Gotta try again. But like, it's so short that it's almost. In some sense, it reminds me a little bit of like the roguelike genre in that way of like, I really enjoy roguelikes because it's like this short gameplay loop. You can make progress and then you can stop when you inevitably probably fail. This one, you don't usually fail, but like, within that, just like that short gameplay loop I think can be really helpful, I think especially as like a dad and having a family and work and everything. Like, short things like this are very relieving. So I was. I don't know, I think the gameplay loop is enough on the one hand, if it's truly fun and also if the loop, if the game doesn't overstay, its welcome. And I did appreciate that about this game. It did not overstay its welcome. It didn't promise more than it could give. It just was a simple, fun game.

This, this game Sort of served as a. As a palette cleanser for me. I looked at before I started it. Well, I had just finished Spider Man 2 At the time, and, you know, that's when the conversation about this game came up. And I knew it was short, so, you know, it was. I looked at it like something like Power Wash Simulator, you know, just.

I'm gonna.

Let me try this thing out. It was on Game pass. I'm like, okay, cool. Let me give it a shot. Just sitting there. And before you know it, time goes by. I'm digging dirt. This game is dumb, but you couldn't stop playing dig a hole, you know, and sell your rocks and, you know, the whole loop, and before you know it, you're just kind of sucked into it. But, yeah, this is just one of those relaxing, just kind of zen games, if you will, you know, just something to decompress with. But, yeah, for me, I mean, it was really just kind of a palate cleanser between games.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Spike, you've been. You've been pretty quiet for the most part. I'm kind of curious, like, to. To get some feedback, like, I might regret this.

Please don't. Well, I wasn't sure how much of this dips into the spoiler, so I was kind of. I was saving a lot of this for this spoiler, but it's kind of been hit on already. The. The gameplay loop itself is. You know, obviously, it's the bread and butter of it. I feel like the game itself, though, it. It's a parody, right? I. I don't know how else to say it. Right. It's the functions there, they're fun, but the absurdity, the fact that you're just playing a game with such a simple premise feels a bit like a joke, right? Like. Like you could sit and get deep where you're not supposed to get deep. And that's my favorite thing to do. I like digging deep where, you know, they didn't intend for you to.

But

if you want to focus on, like, the why of this game, maybe this is spoiler, maybe not. You could say that the. It's. It's simultaneously a metaphor and literal at the same time. Right? Like. Like, it's. There's part of this conversation that I want to. I want to say after the fact that. After the spoiler part, but I'll leave it at that for right now because it has a lot to do with where this game leaves you. So.

Yeah,

no, yeah, I definitely think there's some ways to read this that. Yeah, like. And I'm kind of looking forward to that conversation, Porcho. Like, you know, I kind of like, what. What are your thoughts and feelings in regarding to the loop? You know,

I think it would have been a good game to briefly bring up in my conversation with Mark on Quick Play recently about games we could play with our kids, because this is one that I did play with my son Atticus, for at least an hour before he fell asleep that night. And it's very much a. It brings out the. The sense even is us, I think, in, oh, what am I going to find by keeping on digging? And I feel like it brought that out in my son. He just kept asking me, oh, go over there, you know, what's in that direction and what's that? And just lots of those questions. How.

What my.

How.

You know, and I enjoy that about loop because, like, you'd be like, oh, you're about to run our battery. You need to go get more battery. And like, okay, I'll go get more batteries. Like, he liked the loop because gave. Gave him something to see me flying up out of the hole and, oh, where are you going to go now when I come back? So I think the loop's fine, and you come back and you get rewarded every time until you don't.

It's. I'm. I am very mechanically driven. Like, I love a good story, but primarily the draw for most games is mechanical for me, so it's about how it controls. And actually, I love a good loop. You know, Dave, you brought up Roguelikes. Hades is one of my favorite games of all time because it's just got a perfect loop. Absolum is sort of my recent obsession. And it's because it's got a. Just the. The loop is just super tight. And so when you have a really. Now, this is very. It's a very simplified game mechanically, but the loop sticks. I mean, you know, Dorian, you even talked about how, like, you're playing it for a few minutes and you're like, this is so dumb. Why am I doing this? Like, there's this internal monologue, probably the first, like, 15 minutes of the game. You're just like, what? This is dumb. This is so dumb. And then, you know, you keep going just, like, a little bit past that, and it's like, oh, I'm having fun. And not just a little bit of fun, but actually a substantial amount of fun. I should not be enjoying this nearly as much as I do, but it's very.

I want to know what's down there. I want to Know, the checks.

Yeah. The treasure.

It's true that actually I was like, yeah.

Yeah. But it's. It's just one of those things where I think, for me, as someone who, like, loop is a. Is a drawing factor, I think, especially there's. There's a lot of factors in Dave, You. You kind of hit it. Hit. Hit it, too, is that this is short. It. It's pretty simple. It's easy to get into. And I think that is sort of a bit of a perfect storm where it's just kind of like. And. And I think, too, like, one of the other things, like, and just sort. I know this is kind of. But the fact that it's five bucks, you know, and you can play it, you can beat it in an hour or two is. Speaks volumes, I think. And. And so that. That. That adds to that, like. Yeah. In some ways, there isn't a lot going on, but it's sort of like the right price point, the right amount of content, the loop, it just. It makes sense. And. Yeah, so that's. I mean, that, for me, was the. Like, I said that. So it's like, going back to that question, it's like, is the loop enough? Like.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, for five bucks.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And the upgrades are really fun, too. Like, especially to the shovel. I can say by the time I got to the drill, I'm like, this is amazing. I am having so much fun just drilling. Just want to drill everything now.

Yes.

It's also. It's, like, hilarious of just the. I mean, this is pretty lo fi. So the automatic shovel, if you don't know, it's like, there's a little jab to the ground and a little hole appears. Like it's just a little circle a little bit deep down. Every time you upgrade the shovel, that hole just gets a little bit bigger. It's so significant. Every time you do it, it's like, holes. Holy cow. I can really just go to town here.

Yeah. And then you're basically just melting the dirt, you know, with the drill, which is unstoppable. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. I don't really have much to add, but I do think the fact that it's a short game certainly helps it, just because it's not. It's not very ambitious. And so with its length, it definitely helps.

With Dorian.

Sorry.

With Dorian saying, oh, you know, this is so stupid. Why am I doing this? After three minutes? And then, you know, the game probably only two hours. And then you have JRPG players who are probably like, why am I doing this. This is so stupid. 80 hours later.

You're not wrong.

There are games I want to play that I just have not touched. Because they're so freaking long.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah. Like, I still want to play Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth. I bought it like over a year ago. Just sitting there staring at me. And like, I look at him like, but you're such a commitment. It's like, I have to marry you and didn't have to do that.

I don't think that one's anywhere near 80 hours. Unless.

I don't know. I mean, I'm definitely not going to do that.

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's between 30 and 40, but okay. Anyways, so it's. It is more manageable, but it is. Is certainly a.

Like a concubine instead of a wife. Oh, boy. Wow.

Wow. I don't know how I feel about that.

Oh, that's probably not good.

I don't want to see what's in the holes in your backyard.

You can't dig in New Hampshire. It's all rocks.

Oh, yeah. Oh, it's a lot to sell. Make a lot of money doing that. Yeah.

That's true business.

Well, there you go.

Since we are on a bit of a timer.

Yep.

Let's kind of keep ticking along here. Moving along here. Is there any other spoiler free thing that we wanted to hit on or can we just blow the horn here? Speak now or forever hold your peace.

I was gonna say you can continue on after I leave. I did. Before spoilers. I did want to show something just

for going and going.

How long does that go for?

I'm just letting it go to be a funk.

Like, I didn't think it was that long in any of the other episodes.

Now for the. The viewers at home and the kiddies watching on the YouTube, I've brought along a

little shovel of my own.

Pretty cool, isn't it?

It's just like it.

Why do you have. Why do you have a. An E tool?

Because I was watching the show alone, season three. One of the guys on there, the guy one Fowler, he had his own little shovel. I was like, huh, that's pretty cool. I looked him up. I found one on Etsy and I got it from Ukraine before the war started there.

Whoa.

Just in time.

And now I keep it in the back of my car just in case it breaks down. I need to fight off some moles.

Your car breaks down. Let me just use the shovel, dude.

When we get to talking about how, like, when we actually engage with the moles, I have, I have grievances to air. I'm just going to say I, I was disturbed, but let's. I, I don't. You know, Spike, you sort of, you said that there was some stuff that you, you wanted to save the bulk of your contribution for the spoiler post. Spoiler. So why don't you sort of kick us off here and sort of, you know, I don't know. Again, don't make me say this.

Put your tin foil hat on as if the bulk.

Like I've got a whole lot to say. I mean, I don't want you to make a mountain out of a molehill,

but.

So the, the. We can get into more of the. Hey, this is the, the ending. This is how it happened. All that if, if we need to. But ultimately, I think unless somebody can disagree, you get to the end. And like I've, I've heard so many people hype this up like, hey, you got to play this, you got to check it out. And the cheap price point, that's like, hey, that's, that's, you know, that's very tempting. Everybody's talking about it. I can easily jump in, get in on the conversation. And I did. And I, this is gonna sound like I didn't like it. I enjoyed the game. Love the loop. Anytime you have, you know, do the thing, gain the ability to do the thing even better. Like, I love that loop. But ultimately I feel like the point of this game is that there is no point to this game. I mean, you're, you're waiting for that moment of oh, that's why. And it's, you get to the very end, you're like, oh, there was nothing. It was, I mean, yes, something ultimately happens. You know, the, the, you find out it was all a ruse or whatever, but it's, it, it's the equivalent of an anti joke in my opinion. This game, this game is if you turned, why did the chicken cross the road into. Into a game? And it. That sounds like I don't like it. I love that fact. Just the fact that it's like the punchline is that there's no punchline. It's, it's, it makes you think about it. It's, it's just this big dumb paradox. It's, it's being entirely simplistic without any deeper meaning other than that literal act of digging a hole. But as a result, it becomes a big, dumb, profound piece of art where you're just constantly digging for more than what's literally there just to find out that it really was just a big dumb game with no point, which in turn says something on a metaphorical level. It's just this, this constant. You talk about loops. You can get in a loop of, hey, does this game actually mean anything at all? And then it's like, no, it's this super deep. Nope, it's just a. There's, there's no answer, I think, well, but again, I love that I, I

wouldn't disagree with that read. I think that if we're talking, discussing authorial intent, again, I don't think they were assigning any sort of deep, super profound thing. But what's really interesting is either through our own sort of like foolishness or. And I actually, I do think, like there's something. Actually there are a few interesting ideas that we can kind of tease out of the gameplay loop and everything else. When you talk about the ending, you know, you can talk about Mark. One of the things I was actually thinking about when I was playing this is we've had conversations about like doing sort of like everyday mediocre, tedious tasks. Like, why is a game like your favorite game? Stardew Valley is built on the principle of like managing a farm, which is like the most tedious. Like, if you're like, hey, do you want to manage a farm? Do you want to like run a farm? I'm like, no. In real life, no, not at all. But if like, hey, do you want to do this in a video game? And I'm like, yeah. And it's. Because what it does is it sort of, it almost sort of restores that kind of that, that, that identic relationship with work where it's like you labor. The feedback loop is pretty instantaneous. Like it's satisfying right from the get go. And this game sort of taps into that, right? And so maybe you can sort of, you can read into it like, hey, you get to the bottom and you know, you're already listening. So you guys knew. But you get to the bottom and you find out it's, it's all for nothing. There's sort of this lie. And so maybe it's. Maybe people are reading. And I've heard somebody say, like, it's a, it's a great piece about the, the, the, the failures of capitalism. And I was like, well, like, thank you for self identifying like, you.

Are you all right, Johnny?

Yeah.

You've let me know entirely too much about your political, political leanings. I mean, you know, the blue hair should have given it away, but, but

the mole was Donald Trump. The Whole time.

The mole was Donald Trump, clearly.

What about the other two moles?

Well, one. One of them had to be Rumsfeld. Rumsfeld. You know, like the. I don't know, like. But there's. I think it's. It's one of those things where. And I'm. I'm really uncomfortable calling it, like, an art game, but I do think, like, it's kind of clever enough that it does hold a little bit of a mirror up to people and for people who have a tendency to, like, want to, like, dig with these things, like, it can ask some interesting questions. Stop it. Come on.

Point to the camera for audio listeners.

Yeah. He's like, you know, I should be able to say the word. I shouldn't have to dance around that word. Just because you're all juvenile, like. Like children. You're infants. But I think there's. And it's just one of those things where in. In reading to this, one of the thing is, like, curiosity really is the real gameplay loop. Because. And we even talked about that. It's about what happens. Like, go like, what's what more, you know, what else is there? And I do think there's sort of metaphors about work and, you know, like, all of that. And there. I think there are potentially profound meanings that can be extracted. But again, I don't think it's authority on 10. I think that's actually us reading into the text, and maybe it tells us things or shows us things that we either know or want to believe, but I don't. Again, like, I. I actually agree with your read, Spike, in the sense that I don't think it really has much to say. I think there's, like, stuff that's kind of seated in there to just actually just spark curiosity. Like, it's just like, you know, I did some reading again, and there's lots of, like, theories about, like, the lore of this universe, like, the different structures that you find underground and everything else. And there's all these things that people are theorizing, but it's like, I think that's kind of like. And again, none of it's canonical. It's all just. It's people being bored and weird and obsessive on the Internet. And. And that's not necessarily double meaning. What's that?

I said, yeah, that's fair.

I just thought of a double meaning that I hadn't thought of before. So you pay $5, you buy the game, makes you happy, you get to the bottom, and you find out money can't buy you happiness, but then you just realized you're happy because you bought this game for $5, but then you play it, and you realize you're not happy because money can't buy you happiness.

Oh, man.

Yeah.

Paradox.

That's a whole new gameplay loop right there.

There's a whole new loop.

Yeah, there are.

There are so many takeaways away from this game.

Go now.

Go ahead.

I'm sorry.

Go ahead.

I was gonna say, like, with what Spike was saying, like, I really think, you know, the author, he said what the guy made it, said he just wanted it to be fun. And it is fun, but, like, come, like, bringing it back to scripture, like, playing through it. And it's funny, I was talking to my wife today about the game, and she's like, oh, you're gonna have a podcast talking about that game. Like, what are you gonna talk about? Like, we'll find something. But I was talking about it with her, and she was like. So I described, like, the whole ending. You get down to the bottom, you finally get to the treasure chest. You're ready to open it up and see, because it's like, you've been finding diamonds, you've been finding gold, all these precious stones. What's that treasure gonna be? It's got to be something amazing. And it's nothing in the moles kill you. And then you just do it all again. And she just turned to me, she's like, sounds like Ecclesiastes. I'm like, I think you are. I. I think that's a great, like, take on it. And I think the guy who made it accidentally made that, like, in the sense of, obviously, I don't think he's reading Ecclesiastes, but, like, even Ecclesiastes 2:11 says, Then I considered all that my hands had done in the toil I had expended in doing it. And behold, all was vanity and a striving after wind, and there was nothing to be gained under the sun. And, like, all that striving and toil, like, if he had just been. If we could theoretically just be content with loads of money we made off those diamonds. Like, he toils for nothing, gets down to the bottom, and it's nothing. And then Ecclesiastes also talks about, you know, generations comes a generation goes, and essentially just does the same things over and over and over. That cyclical nature of when we live just for what we can do in front of us, not before the face of God, but under the sun. Like, it's pointless, man. It feels pointless. And I don't know. I think the author is getting at that by accident because as far as I know, he's not a Christian. I didn't look into him actually. And like, if you're not like, your toil is pointless, everything is pointless.

Well, and what he said about the game is this, is that, you know, I'm not quoting it, but that it was meant to just be a very literal experience. The game is about digging a hole. And you dig the hole because it feels good, because it's fun, because it provides its own sort of like feedback dopamine loop. And that's all there is to it. It's like the progress is the point. Which actually is the kind of like, I think something that I've been ruminating on for a while is that especially with AI kind of being. AI being as prevalent in creative fields and we actually, you know, there's some interesting conversations like, you know, this generative AI though, and there's, there's a lot of talk about intent and everything else. There's kind of. And I've just seen a bunch of different conversations online. But the people who are big proponents of generative AI to make art, you know, whatever, you know, I'm throwing up air quotes here. A lot of it is like, I made this cool thing, you know, and the, they're, the whole goal for them is that the ends, they're not interested in the process, they're interested in the ends. And the, the other side of it, the people who are really saying like, you didn't make anything, you typed in a prompt. And then, you know, and let's just be honest, artists need to stop being so precious and sacred with their stuff because they're all stealing too. They're drawing inspiration. Like none of it comes to them, you know, as, as a, as bolts of epiphany. They're all drawing inspiration from everything around them. From things they read to watch, listen to, etc, so they're stealing is actually one of my favorite books I received years ago is called Steal like an Artist. And it was talking about like, listen, when you're making things, you are, you're, you're engaged in synthesis. Like you're taking all these things, drawing inspiration.

Oh man.

Boo. Boo that man. Boo him. But you're pulling all these things and then you're, you're kind of, you're acting, you're, you're acting in sub creation. But the thing that the AI, the, the, the, the AI proponents, especially in this field are pushing for is like the end product matters, and it does. But also art and creation, sub creation rather. It's. It's a process. And that part matters and that I think we can inherently understand this as well. And so I think sometimes it's. Again, Mark, it kind of harkens back to that. That Edenic state where it feels good because there's. There. It's just you're doing something and it's that immediate sort of satisfaction where it's like your. Your labor isn't toiling against you really well. I mean, there's a little. There's some roadblocks. Like you hit the. The rocks that you need the dynamite for. Occasionally you find lava, which yo. All I'm saying is the dude finding lava that close to the surface of like. I'm like, you have problems. Problems here, friend. You have serious, serious problems.

But at least it's only in patches.

At least it's only in patches.

Lava patches here and there

that you can.

Yeah.

That you can blow up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But yeah, it's. It's just one of those things where I do think that deeper meaning can be pulled out of it. And I actually think that's kind of like one of the really smart things about this game is that by not sort of saying anything, the. The creator leaves all sorts. Sorts of room for interpretation. And I actually think like, the. The talking about Ecclesiastes and that model of like, it's all vanity. Like, this is like. Yeah, this is kind of like. It's like this is. This is a great picture of that as well.

Yeah.

Because another guy just comes and does it. You know, he has his whole like, checklist of like, you're like number like 30 or something when you first do it. And like Tally Mark comes up.

Yeah.

Told you it was a setup

house, though.

I'll say that I'm. I'm actually kind of on the other side. I. I disagree with how well it was implemented. It felt a lot more just. It felt to me as though he wrote this thing and wanted to play this game, wanted to implement this gameplay loop, didn't know how to end it, and so just kind of threw some stuff at the wall.

Oh, dude. He definitely stumbled. Like if there is any sort of deeper thing. Yeah, he stumbled into it. I can't believe for a second that this is purely intentional because I think

there are better ways of doing this, frankly. Now, Mark, you mentioned Steamworld Dig. I've played Steamworld Dig 1 and 2 and I really like those games. I totally get this is. This is in 3D so it's a little different but I, I feel like Steamworld Dig are just better in many different ways. They're longer game. Well the first one's what like three hours? So maybe twice as long as this game. So I would highly recommend those games over this one as well. Not saying that I dislike this game because I did like has been said I did enjoy the loop but I don't think if. Yeah it felt to me as though he just painted himself into a corner and didn't know how to end it because why then would you say that oh there's this secret treasure I can say. On the other hand, I do appreciate that he didn't try to be overly clever and rub your nose in it. Like haha, you were just doing this for. For a treasure chest and there's you know like a. A jack in the box just pointing and laughing at you. This was called a game about digging a hole and you wasted your time. You know like some games like actively antagonist antagonize you. You mentioned Spike about like an anti joke. There are some anti jokes that actively like antagonizing you for paying attention. Whereas this. I don't. I, I am glad that it didn't do that because I was like nervous especially Dave, I think you mentioned it earlier like you're digging up diamonds and like stuff that's clearly super valuable. So like what even could this be right? And then it turns out to be, you know, whether it was the moles who did it and in cahoots with whoever's selling that. I don't.

I don't know.

I don't. I don't know who did it.

But the fact who's filling the hole each time. Who knows?

Yeah, I. I don't know. I don't really care. And so like I. While I enjoy these conversations as well into. What does it teach? I think like you said, it's more of a mirror or at least it's it. We're kind of like searching for meaning.

We're reading into it.

Yes, yes. And again these are good conversations to have as we. As we learn these things about ourselves or reconsider these things about ourselves. But I don't think it's the game is saying that. I think it's our reactions to the game. You know, like I think it's very clearly not the game itself. So I. Yeah, I'm just on the other side. So it feels a little bit like navel gazing when you go at. While I also recognize like these are some good conversations to Have. The last point I'll make is that I wanted to continue down Porches, for lack of a better term, kind of rabbit hole there. And I think what you're talking about, Porcho, is actually quantum happiness, because you're happy that you've purchased the game, that you've played the game, but once you open that box and see what's inside, then your happiness disappears. So it actually is there until you observe it, and then it's got. So it's actually. Yeah, I think that's what this game is about.

And then as soon as you stop paying attention to whether you're happy or not, you realize you're happy again. Your dissatisfaction is based purely on how much attention you're sort of giving it, which is also pretty interesting about, like, just a pretty interesting insight about life in general.

Life is more than just.

There are so. There are so many. So many, I think, interpretations that you can take with this game.

Sure.

And so some of you already covered some of them. So porch, you know, like, hey, you're happy. You spent the five bucks. And then you realize, like, oh, this can't buy you happiness. The other thing I was thinking about, so immediately when I started the game, my first thought was Matthew 13:44. And then, you know, the kingdom of heaven is like a treasure that a man discovered in the field. And then I realized, well, I mean, you don't really discover the treasure. It's just, you know, hey, here's a house for $10,000. And hey, there's a treasure. Red flags all over the place.

But,

you know, so. So there's that. Then there's the. I. I think I saw someone online say it's like the. The meaning. The endless meaning. Meaningless. Of meaninglessness of life. You're grinding, you're digging, and there's nothing at the end, which is, you know, pretty. You know, if you take that to its. You know, take that seriously to his logical conclusion, it's pretty grim. Which actually there is. We haven't talked about the ending yet, but. And, oh, there was one more I had on the tip of my tongue. Oh, yeah. You know, you could also look at. It is, you know, you're digging a hole and you're. Spoiler territory. You're literally digging your own grave. So, you know, Go where you want with those, but those are just some of the strands that you can pull on.

Yeah, sure.

Pick your. Pick your own meaning.

Yeah, there you go.

All right. Postmodern.

Right?

Right.

Whatever you feel like it means today.

Whatever it means.

We're Saying you feel about it with.

Saying you're digging your own grave. Right. There's so many things you can say about this game that if you say it out loud, you sound like you're, you're, you're using a metaphor describing something else. Like, yeah, just keep digging until you uncover, you know, more secrets and more treasure that, that you sound like you're describing something else, but you're literally talking about what you're doing in this game. And that happens on so many levels. No pun intended that time. I wish it was, but yeah, I mean it's, it's just, it, it's hilarious to me how much there can be so much pulled out of something that I'm kind of leaning towards what Josh is saying. I don't think it was intended, but there's still so much to pull out.

It's.

It's hilarious.

We probably talked about it longer than it took him to make it.

Well, it took him two weeks.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, there's been a few episodes that long.

Yeah.

What I want to note too is like this is, this is game that is like, well, for one, no, I agree with Josh. It's not as good as SteamWorld. Dig one or two, like, it did have a weird, profound impact on me because it did impact how I appreciated loops in the sense of like, I don't think he meant to do this. I think it. And I don't think it really was like, it's not even mean spirited, but it is, I think spikes with it too. Like it is kind of a joke. It feels like a two hour setup to a joke and you're the punchline. And that might be giving him way too much credit, not giving the developer too much credit with it, but it did kind of for me. It had this semi existential crisis around video games of just like, wait, so why was I playing this? Was I having fun or was I doing the job of someone who's supposed to be having fun doing this? And it's like ultimately, yeah, I still had fun. I still enjoyed my time. And that's like, that's kind of why you made the game, because the loop is still satisfying and like. But it did also at the same time it, I struggle with it because it made me hunger for more out of games. Like I. And I don't really know what more means. Like if, if I, I love a good loop but like what's the extra context or setting or, or the why in a game that I'm like looking for? And I don't Know if that is. I don't even know if that's like fair to ask for, but I played Pikmin 4 right after this game and I think this game negatively impacted my experience with Pikmin 4. I still love Pikmin 4 because Pikmin 4 has an incredible gameplay loop, but it's also the narrative. Pikmin 4 is pretty paper thin, rightfully so. It is serving the gameplay loop of Pikmin. So it didn't have to be that much of a narrative. And it's like, I don't even think I'm looking for narrative to fill that hole of like, what am I missing here that the gameplay loop can't quite stretch out this much? But now it's like even playing Donkey Kong Bonanza of my experience of that was like, this is fun, but there's still a gap that I'm not quite connecting that I think a game about digging hole kind of wedged itself into. And again, none of that is even the point of the game. I don't think he's trying to poke fun at gameplay loops of making a good gameplay loop. I think you just make it good gameplay loop. And so it is funny of just like there's a before and after a game about digging a hole for me and how I experience games. And I don't even know if he meant to do that to me.

Well, it's all in the title, right? Like, I, I think the title, if he named it anything else, it would have probably had at least a slightly different effect, right? With it being called a game about digging a hole. There's this part of you that reads that and you're like, is it really.

Is it really just a game about let's find out.

And. And I think that's the hook. And yeah, it's when. When you say a game about, right, you're inviting all kinds of crazy ideas and, you know, dissecting and all that. So what are games about?

So, yeah, well, and I just think it's. It's really interesting Mark too, because I think in a lot of ways, just historically, you have been pretty loop oriented. And this one, for the first time, I think it's kind of actually really funny that this one kind of poked you in the eye a little bit and you're like, I want a little bit more. Like the loop is no longer as satisfying. And if you're not careful, what I'm going to say is you're just going to become like me, perpetually dissatisfied because nothing will ever say anything really? As I. And again, though. Yeah, yeah.

Or even worse, I'm a JRPG fan.

Yeah. Be careful.

No data there.

Don't worry.

I. I think it. It is interesting. Yeah. I. I think, like I said, I would largely agree that I. I do think there were some intentional decisions that sort of helped Cyberwave stumble into something that's a. Probably a little bit more profound than they anticipated. I think the fact that, like, hey, I'm not really. There is no official lore. It's literally just a game about digging a hole and then sort of seeding again. Like, the little bits and pieces that, like, hint at a bigger mystery without there really being a bigger mystery. And I just think, even though the ending sure wasn't the endings, like, can we just, like, let's just take a. Like a brief pause here and, like, let's talk about the ending is you get to the bottom, your lights don't work, you can't employ dynamite, and your stuff just doesn't work anymore, I think. Except your jetpack. Like, you can use your jetpack to shoot.

You can't use your jetpack.

Oh, so once you're not.

Once you're in the tunnel.

Once you're in the tunnel, you're out.

Like, you can run.

That's it.

So you can run becomes a survival horror game.

It does. My theory does not like that part.

And you. You kind of go through the tunnel, you hear the grunting, and there's this giant polygonal rat mole thing. And if it sees you, it will chase you down and kill you.

It's got red eyes.

It's got red eyes.

Demonic red eyes.

Yeah.

There was, like, two rooms where you had, like, the first room, you had the Dodge one. And then the second room I had the Dodge two, You know, and you run down and you find the treasure chest, and it's like. And then you open it up, and it's empty. And then you turn around, and the three moles have basically, you know, they've cornered you.

Yeah.

And then you die. And, Dave, you said it. It's like you get. The game just sort of starts over again in that. That opening scene starts again. And it shows the. The same thing. Guy putting up a sign, you know, house for $10,000, and he's holding a. A clipboard, and he puts another tally off. And then as he drives away in this truck, it sort of shows the license plate, and part of the license plate decal, there's a little mole.

Yeah.

Like, hanging out. So it's like.

And. And that's Why? I said it's a setup. They got a whole situation going on.

Yeah.

Okay. You're just the next victim.

But how is this guy related?

He's. He's a mole person. He's a mole man.

There you go, man.

That's I.

Who's filling the halls. That's the part just.

But. But anyways, sort of going. Going back to what I was saying, though, is I. Again, I think the fact that he didn't ascribe a whole lot of meaning or try to get too clever actually opens it up to become a pretty interesting mirror. And again, there's. I think there's lots of interesting reads that you can get out of this material, but also, like. Like, don't take it too seriously, you know, Like.

Yeah, because even when you said that you have to dodge the moles, I think you're being very liberal with your. Your use of the term dodge.

Yeah, you have to outline.

Yeah. There is, like, a pillar that you just walk around the other side and hope that they don't see you. Like, it is.

Dude, I saw the most. Like, listen, I. I was like, no. This became like a stealth game for me where I was like. I was very much like. Like, we're going to, like, avoid their field of vision, you know, and sneak around them.

Did anybody else. Did anybody else say to themselves, I'm good.

I got a drill, dude, for real. I was really mad.

I was trying to throw that dynamite. That was my plan.

So, yeah, the first time. The first time I made it down there, you know, I heard the grunts and everything, just like, you know, and I saw the backside of the creature, and so I approached slowly because I

know what's going on.

This is different. Like, oh, what are you doing? You know? And then it turns around. I see the red demonic eyes. I'm thinking to myself, like, I thought I was drilling. You know what I'm saying? I got a drill, son.

What you gonna do?

You know? And then he lunges toward me, and then instantly my screen goes black. Yeah, this isn't gonna work.

And then I tried to throw dynamite, and it was like, dynamite does not work down here. I was like, how does dynamite not work down here?

Because you're.

The moles must have been supplying it all somehow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I did. I actually. I really struggled with the last little bit because I forgot what. The sprint button.

I couldn't pass the moles.

And it's like, oh, you can run faster. That makes it a lot easier.

I was a little. I don't Know, to me, it was like, okay, this kind of destroys the whole gameplay loop in and of itself. Like, speaking of loop, I'm like, this is nothing like anything else you've been doing the rest of the game. I actually got a little annoyed. Why are they throwing this at me at the end?

I don't know.

Yeah, Yeah.

I didn't like the helplessness just because there's a whole horrible feeling of, like, wanting to turn around and see how close that mole is, but I just really need to try and find his treasure chest. I only played it, brief it briefly, because I gave up because I was too scared. But I played Resident Evil 7. And you're stuck in that horrible house, got no weapons, you're helpless, and you're just avoiding this madman. And it kind of reminded me of

that a little bit.

Like, totally different, but just the whole helpless feeling. It's like, I just want to get out of here.

That's why I like UL4.

Yeah, RE4 is a lot better.

He's just roundhouse kick.

Yeah, that's how you deal with your problems.

Exactly. Still intense. But you just get to roundhouse kick people.

And the moles are huge.

Yeah, those. Those are not. They're definitely Nephilim moles eating all the people.

I do think there is a clever subversion of expectation with it, actually. Of, like, you go to one room, there's one mole. You go to the second room, there's two moles, and you think, all right, this is the final little bit. I gotta get past three moles next time. And you just walk in and this giant room where there's just the treasure chest. You think, all right, the three moles gonna pop out at any point. I gotta get past him. You just get to the treasure chest and then it's like. Then it does the ending cut scene, and then there's the three moles. So, like, it still lands in this, like, final progression, but you can't get it. I mean, that tickled me the more I thought about it after I pulled myself together again.

Yeah. Another way of finding a point where there probably isn't one.

Right.

Is the fact that there's the new game. Plus, like, you as the player know at this point what you're doing this

for,

and you go through it anyway, which there is, you know, like I said, a point that wasn't really probably there. But, I mean, you think about that like you're. There is a metaphor there of you're going for material things, you know, that that leads to death. But you're still going for those material things. There is a. There's something to be pulled there again.

And if you want to take. If you want to take it a step further, you don't get all of any of your trophies or achievements until the second playthrough.

Yeah, that's true. That's also weird.

More material chasing.

There you go.

Getting your treasures in heaven.

Well, did any of you guys find any of the keys?

No.

Yeah, I found one. And I'm. I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna find the. Like, I'm gonna. In the original save file, I'm gonna find the second one because I found that there's that lockbox in your garage or whatever it's got. I was like, oh, what's in here? So even there, the. The curiosity as the primary, like, curiosity is the point of the game. It's like, so.

So I. Again, I'm on the other side of you with this because I. You know, the bits and pieces that I research of other stuff you could do in the game. I was like, cool. I already played the game. I don't care. Like. Like, I've already seen the ending. Like, I don't want to go back, even though I enjoy the loop. Like, there's no point. I've already beaten the game. Like, I don't need to squeeze anything more out of this.

You're just so.

It's funny.

You are a killer of fun.

Well, it's. It's also the way we play. It's interesting to me, too, because, like, Mark, you're talking about your reaction to. I. I totally. I get where you're coming from. And. And I think it's a really interesting perspective of wrestling with, oh, did I like. Did I actually like this? And what am I expecting? And questions like that. Whereas I just hold those tensions in.

And.

And where I come to is I did enjoy my time with the game, but I was dissatisfied. And so how then could it have been better? Does that make sense? Like, oh, from a writing perspective, he could have done this while, again, like, I want to give him credit that he was not. He didn't rub it in my face. I do think ultimately it was kind of a joke. It was kind of like, oh, he painted himself into a corner. There's really nothing in there. It's the. It's the. The Pulp Fiction, you know, the. The orange glow from the box kind of a thing. You know, there's not really. It's a. What is that called? Not a mulligan, but the Thing. There you go. Yeah, the MacGuffin, like, that's. That's all that it was type deal. And I. I kind of hold those things and. And so, like, that's what this game is to me. Whereas I totally understand, like, no, like, did I actually. Did I enjoy this? And why. And yeah, yeah, it's just funny to see the different places too, because, yeah, I watched a YouTube video, you know, where guy, you know, gets 100% speed running the game. But then another one where, oh, I dug literally all of the dirt out of this game, you know, in order to do that, which is like, to me, I get it, if you're a streamer, like, you're gonna be playing video games for eight hours a day anyway. Okay, I understand that, dude, but for me, I'm just like, no, I. I don't like, I. I beat the game. I don't care. I heard there's some magic teleporter you can get behind a door in your garage. Whatever.

I don't care. I already.

I already got to the bottom. Like, what's a teleporter gonna help me? I'm done.

I want to engage in some of that psychotic behavior, though, and I want to dig all the dirt.

Like, just very different people.

Yeah, as. Sorry, go ahead real quick. As much as. As much as, like, it did kind of impact me. Like, I did have a similar experience of new game plus starts. Like, oh, the achievements. Like, that's hilarious. I'll check this out. And then I got like five minutes and felt like, I don't want to do this anymore.

Okay.

Like, I'm like, I. I've actually have played the game. I'll maybe do the new game plus another time, but not right after I finished it.

Yeah.

But anyway. David, what are you going for?

Oh, I think it was me. Or was it.

Sorry, Spike, not me.

I could talk if I needed to.

But I think the. Nate, you mentioned the thing that Josh was kind of pushing back on, the curiosity, right? You saw the keys and all that kind of stuff, that curiosity. I think it's done better in other games, but it's something that I miss in games, especially older games where they don't just hand you the, hey, here's how you play. And it makes me curious because, you know, preview for a later episode, going to like Tunic. Right? That's the whole point of the game, right? Is like, they don't tell you anything. You just start that game and you. You just play it, right? That's like. That is such a pure, like, Curiosity based game that it's.

It.

It makes me wonder what you think with that. But this game does that a little bit as well because it just tells you hey, dig. And it kind of scratches that same itch. But that is way to plug your

own patron pick, by the way.

Exactly.

Yeah.

I would never plug anything on a. That is. That is way beneath me. I would never plug. Anyways, nextpedition is business card card right there.

It is fun.

You should do it. You did have some left.

I did.

Well, we are. We are probably drawing close to the end of our. Our time here. Are there any closing thoughts? Like is there anything that anybody want to hits. Wants to hit quickly or should we just kind of move on to the final forms here?

We've already hit rock bottom.

If I had.

I was gonna say we dug up all the dirt.

If I had to say one thing about this game, I feel like it wasn't saying any anything and I loved what it was trying to say.

So I think that says a lot about you.

Probably so.

Yeah.

But I would just like to say holy moly.

It filled in the holes I didn't even know I had.

I can't even finish that sentence. I'm sorry.

Beautiful.

You should feel bad.

I do.

Good. I'm glad you Porcho. Any sort of closing thoughts?

I don't want to upset you.

I mean, what's stopping you now?

You, Nate, you've. In my life, you've just left a heart shaped hole and I don't want to fill that in.

Okay.

So leave it at that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay. I'm sad, but for other reasons. But all that being said, you know, did I. I guess all that's really left is. Well, the.

The last.

The closing forms. And so I. I think we just need to engage in some shouting out and I'll. I'll kick it off and give everybody a little bit of time if they haven't prepared their shout out. But even though he's been well, reasonably behaved on this one, I wanted. I have two shout outs really. One wanted to shout out Dave for jumping on with us. And he's actually the. The most recent addition to the Patreon. So. Welcome to the hallowed halls of the brochachos. I apologize in advance. I take no responsibility for anything that happens with these hooligans. In fact, I actively dissuade a lot of bad behavior, but it does no good. None whatsoever. So that being said, welcome. But also. And yeah, Spike, even though you've been on decent behavior, I Actually wanted to commend you on the conversation in our discord regarding AI. I actually think I really appreciated the discourse between you and John and Jeff and yeah, I, I, I took a lot and actually it was really helpful for me too. I'm going to be doing a bite sized here in the future on sort of like just AI and human, the human soul and work and some of that stuff helped me shape some of those thoughts. So I appreciate that. I appreciate your, yeah, your participation in that.

I appreciate you appreciating it.

Yeah, cool, cool. I appreciate you appreciating me appreciating you.

Yes.

I appreciate, I'm not gonna,

I wanted to see if we could get that bit one more chain down the line. I'm glad somebody had some sense there. But. Yeah, well done, well done. But thank you.

Nice. Nice. I, I guess I'm supposed to do some shout outs now. You just.

Yeah, if you want.

I mean I'm, that's, that's normally how this goes. Like one of us gives a shout out, the other gives a shout out.

But I mean so the shout out

that I had is someone here in this room with us and then I had another shout out because of something I listened to earlier today which is another person like literally, I mean have got shout outs for everyone here but, and well, not you Nate. Not you because you're just, you're just my co host. You know, we're here but you know like, like you mentioned just the guy, you're just a guy digging a hole. You know, it would be, it would be beneath me to, to shout you out so you know Dave, thanks for joining. Like I said, the hallowed halls of the, the patrons really appreciate you. So shout out to you sir. Mark. Shout outs on four years of quick play. Congratulations man, that's awesome. Stoked for the future as well. Porcho. Hey. Shout out to you and your lovely daughter. I didn't realize it was, it was her birthday. So thank you and happy birthday Lou. Yeah, and shout outs to your wife as well that, that you, you're able to even be here and she's not too annoyed every time, every time I nail down, we nail down scheduling a date just to record this podcast and I tell my wife, she just goes boo because she knows I'm not, you know, anyways, so, so shout out to you guys. Spike, I was going to shout out for next edition and particularly the expo that you were just out at because yeah, that deserves more hype even though I am not very good at picture taking in General. I love how you've hit the ground running with that, so that's awesome. And then course, Dorian, just the conversations that we've had. But even like you mentioned earlier, kind of stepping up into some roles there with your church is super cool. So shout outs to you, sir. Thank you guys all for being here because you all have things going on and this has been fun and just kicking stuff around and I've. I've had a lot of fun. So shout out to all you guys. Yeah.

Yeah. So I guess all that's left is kind of to actually just like land the plane here and if people want to get a hold of us. Where can they do that?

Ah, they can do [email protected] thebacklog breakdown tons of links there. Join the Discord. All these dudes are in the Discord. But there's other ways you can contact us too. So if you think there was more to this game, you know, that we didn't uncover, that we didn't dig out, that we didn't excavate, then we'd love for you to let us know.

Yeah, something like that. Something like that.

But, yeah, there might have been more under the surface. We don't know.

Well, I think we have done enough damage here. And until next time, what should they do?

Keep beating down your backlogs and digging holes and whatever it is you do and we'll keep breaking down the benefits.