bite sized: BREAKING! Bungie Layoffs (w/ Jeff Wofford)

Hey, guys, it's Nate, and it's time for another bite size, and I'm calling this a breaking bite sized. We're going to be talking about some recent news that sort of came out. Um, and joining me on today's show is, is a guy I've known for a number of years. Uh, if you were involved in TRG, you may know him. He's actually cleaning up in the Dear listeners fantasy critic league right now. Um, he's projected to sort of land in the top three, and I think last time I checked, you were still at number one. But it's. It's my pal, Jeff Wofford. How you doing tonight, Jeff?

I'm doing better now than I was earlier this week, for sure.

Okay, well, yeah, I think you and I both saw the news, and I think neither one of us was pleased. I think you. You were a little more, like, in your feelings about it. But Destiny's your favorite game, and the sort of this. This bomb that got dropped on us is. It's not what I would call easy. It's. It's not easy to deal with. And there's been some stuff that has come out over the course of the last week. There's been a lot of really weird optical, like, frankly, like snap, like stumbles, you know, by some of some people. And we'll talk about some of that here in a little bit. That just. It's. It's a weird situation. But, um. July 31, Pete Parsons, uh, on, uh, the Bungie net, there on. On Bungie's website, this comes out, and he also tweeted this, but it's, uh, this morning. I am sharing with all of you some of the most difficult changes we've ever had to make as a studio due to rising costs of development and industry shifts, as well as enduring economic conditions, has become clear that we need. Need to make substantial changes to our cost structure and focus developments efforts entirely on destiny and marathon. This means that beginning today, 220 of our roles will be eliminated, representing roughly 17% of our studios workforce. These actions will affect every level in the company, including most of our executive and senior leader roles. Today is a difficult and painful day, especially for our departing colleagues, all of which have made the important and valuable contributions to Bungie. Our goal is to support them with the utmost care and respect for everyone affected by this job reduction. We will be offering a generous exit package, including severance, bonus, and health coverage. I realize that all of this is hard news, especially following the success that we've seen with the final shape, but as we've navigated the broader economic realities over the last year, and after exhausting all other mitigation options, this has become a necessary decision to refocus our studio and our business with more realistic goals and viable financials. We are committing to two other major changes today that we believe will support our focus, leverage Sony strengths, and create new opportunities for Bungie talent. First, we are deepening our integration with Sony Interactive entertainment, working to integrate 155 our roles, roughly 12% into SIE. Over the next few quarters. Sie has worked tirelessly with us to identify roles for as many of our people as possible, enabling us together to save a great deal of talent that would otherwise have been affected by the reduction of force. Second, we are working with PlayStation Studios leadership to spin out one of our main incubation projects, an action game set in a brand new science fantasy universe to form a new studio with PlayStation Studios to continue its promising development. This will be a time of tremendous change for our studio. Let's unpack how we ended up in this position. It's important to understand how we got here. For over five years, it has been our goal to ship games in three enduring global franchises. To realize that ambition, we set up several incubation projects, each seeded with senior development leaders from our existing teams. We eventually realized that this model stretched our talent too thin too quickly. It also forced our studio support structures to scale to a larger level than we could realistically support given our two primary products in development, Destiny and marathon. Additionally, in 2023, our rapid expansion ran headlong into broad economic slowdown, a sharp downturn in the games industry. Our quality missed with Destiny two lightfall and the need to give both the final shape and marathon the time needed to ensure both project projects deliver at the quality our players expect and deserve. We were overly ambitious. Our financial safety margins were subsequently exceeded and we began running in the red. After this new trajectory became clear, we knew we had to change our course and speed, and we did everything we could to avoid today's outcome. Even with exhaustive efforts undertaken across our leadership and product teams to resolve our financial challenges, these steps were simply not enough. As a result, today we must say goodbye to incredible talent, colleagues and friends. This will be a challenging time at Bungie and will need to help our team navigate these changes in the weeks and months ahead. This will be a hard week and we know that our team will need time to process, to ask questions and to absorb this news. Today and over the next several weeks, we will host team meetings and town halls, team breakout sessions and private individual sessions to ensure we are keeping our communication open and transparent. Bungie will continue to make great games. We still have over 850 team members building Destiny Marathon, and we will continue to build amazing experiences that exceed our players expectations. There will be time to talk about our goals and projects, but today is not that day. Today our focus is on supporting our people. And then he closes out with Pete. So there's a lot to sort of like, deal with and unpack there, but the kind of like, the TLDR and I don't think this is, this wasn't, if I'm being honest, Jeff, this wasn't that big a surprise to me. It was, it was a surprise, but it kind of made sense, especially like, you know, I remember reporting with that lightfall they talked about like the, sort of like the miss with, with lightfall. And I'm like, no, you guys, that was a total fumble. Um, that year. They missed, I think, was like 47% of their projected earnings. And like, to just, I mean, if that was any other company, like, they would have, and if it had been any other situation, the, the doors would have been shut, like, shortly after that, or there would have been just like radical restructuring in that moment to maybe like, try and keep the doors open. But there's, and there's just, there's a lot of stuff sort of in here because with the acquisition to Sony, like, frankly, that kept the doors open and that kept a lot of people employed for a number of months while maybe trying to, like, I think the farther we get out from that is like, final shape did really, really well, but it didn't do good enough. And. Yep, I think given, like, you know, the, the, like, Sony paid $3 billion to acquire the studio and gave them unprecedented sort of, basically, like, they were allowed to publish wherever they wanted. They had, they weren't really beholden to Sony leadership directly the way other Sony owned studios were. And it was like they were given a lot of freedoms and a lot of privileges. And I, to me, it's like, a lot of the coverage I've been listening to, it's like, you know, Sony, Sony's C suite at this point in time has to feel like we kind of picked up a lemon here. And this does sound like, I think the other sort of positive thing is it does sound like Sony has done a lot to sort of mitigate damage. You know, the sort of finding places for 155 people. The, the number that I've been hearing for spinning out the small team has been 75 to 100. But, like, the reality was like that. So this is the second major layoff that bungie has experienced in the last six months to a year. And their head count at one point in time was over a thousand people. And that's just, that's a lot of overhead. That's a big swing. And so there's a part of it where it's really unfortunate, but I do think some of this is course correction, that frankly, the studio was too big. And Pete does say that, like, they got a too big, they, they grew too quickly, they spread themselves too thin and there were a lot of problems made. Like a lot of poor decisions were made and a lot of problems arose because of those poor decisions. So, like, unpacking, like, just where are you sitting with sort of that, that info dump.

Yeah. So I think it was surprising at first because, I mean, you kind of talked about earlier, final shape was wildly successful with the fans. Like, everybody loved how good final shape was and I think there was ideas amongst destiny players that had probably sold better than it did. I also think, you know, when you look at the fact that they had got a $3 billion cash influx with the purchase from Sony, I think a lot of people from the outside thought Bungie was in better position than they were. And so, like, lightfall for sure was a huge miss sales wise amongst the fans, everything. And so at first I was like, very surprising. Some of the things that have come out this past week about the amount of freedom that Sony gave Bungie and what they did with that freedom and overextending themselves, as Pete talked about, really makes a lot of sense from here's a studio that really, they were really struggling. May not have been apparent on the outside, but on the inside they were hemorrhaging cash. And so, yes, there's been a lot of layoffs. Yeah, it's going to look really different moving forward as Sony exerts a little more influence. But as a destiny fan, I'm hopeful that it will be for the better in the long run.

Yeah, and I think that's kind of where I'm sitting too, is like. And something we were kind of talking about off mic before we started recording was that, you know, Sony as a general rule, as a general rule, actually tends to be a pretty good steward with their products. And so I think, like maybe they can help find a balance now the navigating the sort of like the games as a service model, I think that's really kind of like a lot of people, including myself, like, I was kind of excited about it because I was like, oh, they're bringing some, like, tech and some expertise into this that's going to be really helpful, you know, because bungie, you know, with destiny, they had, like, arguably one of the best. I don't know, they've got one of the longest running games as a service models in the industry, and they've been fairly successful. Now they're like, anybody who's kind of paid attention, and I'm a fairly recent sort of, you know, jumper on, but it's kind of like, they're like, I've sort of. I've paid attention. I've gone back and I've like, sort of looked at. And there's been ebbs and flows. There's been like, there's good expansions, there's bad expansions. There's good expansions, there's bad expansions. Like, the fan base is really happy. The fan base is really unhappy. And there's sort of been an up and down and a back and forth with this. And I think that's kind of like par for the course. But it does, it does kind of seem like, you know, and I think that what you said, something that is, that from the outside, everything looked a lot better than it actually was, but then when you, like, actually paying attention to the numbers and the performance and everything else, it's like, oh, this is, this is actually not good. And I, so there's kind of like a, like, I share that sentiment that I think, like, hopefully. And frankly, I kind of like seeing what we saw with final shape. I think that if there's a little bit of fire in their belly, like if they're a little hungry, they're a little scared. Like, yeah, it seems like they actually do better. You know, it's like when, when they, they've got. They have to prove something. Whereas I think on the other side of that, it's like when they're a little too comfortable, they get, they get, well, they get too comfortable and they get sloppy. And it's kind of one of those things where it's. There's a part of me with me, like, and again, you know, this is all sort of like projection. I. This is all sort of us, like, sort of speculative, you know, being speculating. But it's like, I'm kind of hopeful. And it's like, it seems like a bit of a course correction. I think we do have to talk, though, about some of the, like, the really. The really nasty. Basically. We got to talk about Pete. Yeah. Yeah, we gotta talk about Pete. And there was a lot of stuff that sort of came out in Twitter. There was allegations because I, you know, I'm just, somebody basically said, like, hey, he invited me over to his house two days before he let go of me to show me, show off this, like, these cars that he had bought for millions of dollars. And I'm like, that's really in bad taste. And it sort of begs the question. It's like, how does this dude, and I think, frankly, like, his decision making, like, here's the, here's the thing. His decision making put them in this situation. Like, he, he misrepresented the numbers to Sony when they were selling. And even if he, like, even if it's like he was working off bad information, like, that's still his responsibility. So, like, Sony C suite can't be happy with him. But then on top of it, it's like, his decision making. Like, he's the CEO. Like, the buck stops with him, and it's his decision making. His, his sort of, like, his policy to move forward with, like, incubating all these. These are these products stretching the company too thin. Like, basically burning up their resources and squandering money. Like, that ultimately rests on him. So he's put them in this position, and I'm kind of like, how does he still have a job? So, I mean, like, any thoughts on that?

Yeah, so, like, as we talk about, like, how fans felt, like, okay, well, destiny is doing okay. And a lot of the rumors going around before final shape came out were, you know, final shape sells really, really well. It will save. It'll save destiny or put it in a good spot. And from some of the rumors and sources, sources is so weird. We don't know who they are, but it seems like employees, even within Bungie, feel like Pete was misdirecting them as well. About the state of Bungie. The car thing is so weird about, like, hey, you're about ready to lay somebody off and come over and look at my cars, is just super tone deaf. And there's a lot of employees on Twitter that have been kind of raging against that. But ultimately, if you're the guy, if you're the guy steering the ship, okay, all those decisions, they reflect on you. And so as we talk about, by the way, this will probably come out at some point. I am not a Sony fan. Nate knows that. He can vouch for that. The guy at Sony who is the head that just got let go, and I can't remember his name, but Jim.

Jim Ryan. Jim.

Yeah, Jim Ryan. That Jim was very successful for a long time, did great things and then kind of reached a point where his decisions weren't doing as well and so he had to go. I, I think it's the same thing with Pete. You know, like they've had two major layoffs in a year, and there's one person who ultimately has to shoulder that and that's Pete Parsons.

Yeah, I think that's, that is interesting, too. Is that like, you know, you sort of mentioned the Jim Ryan connection, is that Sony was acquired or Bungie was acquired by, by PlayStation under the Jim Ryan regime. And it's like, and at first it seemed like Jim was just like. And I think it could have been like equal parts where it's like Jim just really didn't like being away from home as much as he had been because that was kind of like the official, it's like I'm stepping down. But it does seem the more this stuff plays out, like the, the sort of like the, the Concorde open beta or whatever that, that and like the results coming off that and it just, it feels like they, they've swung and they've missed on this sort of games as a service, you know, like the forever game model multiple times now. And a lot of those moves were Jim Ryan. It's like, oh, like maybe Sony higher ups could kind of see this coming down the line and they were like, well, you know, Jim, like, here's the thing. We know that you don't really like traveling. You've been at this for a long time. You've done really good work. We're going to give you sort of like sort of a graceful way out here versus just like if you force our hand, we might sack you. And it, and it kind of does. Like, and I think, yeah, it's just like, for Pete, I'm looking at this and I'm like, dude, like, yeah, you, you kind of, you've, you've gotten the, the storm or the ship through the storm, but you're the one who drove it in there. And then just on top of that, like, yeah, it's like you said, like this dude, he's doing this, like tone deaf stuff. Like he's, and he's known that these additional layoffs are. It's like, it was news to us. It wasn't news to him. And it's like, so, like, the fact that he's got somebody at his house and he's like showing off these cars and it's like there wasn't a connection. It's like that to me speaks to, like, just, that speaks to something where I'm like, there's kind of, this is a dude who doesn't know how to read the room. And at the very least, like, his decision making hasn't been ideal. Maybe it is time to sort of, like, cut him loose. But I think it is a map only a matter of time until there's sort of a misstep where it's like his head might be on the chopping block as well. Like, and it's, we'll see. Now, what's kind of weird, though, is like, he kept his job, but then there are other guys, notably, I want to say, Luke Smith. And who is the other?

And Mark knowsworthy.

Yeah, Luke and Mark both, like, they didn't get let go of, per se. But with the corporate, the way I've heard it reported again is that the, the restructuring, when the restructuring happened, there wasn't a place for these two. And I, like, for me, I'm going like, Luke Smith is Mister destiny. Like, that is the guy. And it's like, if you, in that restructure like that, that seems like a really, I don't, like, I don't want to put on a tin foil hat. That seems like a really weird miss to, like, the guy who has helmed this, this product for all these years, and all of a sudden he sort of, it gets like, you know, kind of pushed out the door, um, you know, and it, and meanwhile, the guy who has been basically steering this company into a black hole still keeps his job. And it's like, there's been some rumblings in the fandom for that, too. You know? I mean, what, what are your thoughts with, with that? Like, I don't, like I said, I don't want to go down this conspiracy theory rabbit hole too much, but it's weird.

Yeah. So, I mean, like, when you talk about people who have been playing destiny for a long time, the, the people who I think the fan base trusts are, like, Luke and Mark and the current guy, Joe Blackburn. And from what I understand, Luke and Mark had been spun out to work on a separate game called payback. I think it was, and it was supposed to be a destiny spinoff, and then that got canceled and so they were kind of floating in nowhere. And then I, layoffs happened and because they don't really have a project, they were gone. And, you know, I, I'm hopeful that Joe will still be there because, again, Joe's a guy that I think can be trusted with their reins, but Destiny fans have to be worried about, you know, who's really calling the shots on Destiny that, like, really loves the game. And I, Pete. Pete goes way, way, way back to like, halo and, you know, back halo one and things like that. So he's been there for a long time and he has success, but the, I don't think the community has the trust for them that they did for Luke and Mark and that they do for Joe right now. So it's, I'm trying to be hopeful. It is definitely concerning, for sure.

Yeah, that's the one where I'm just like, and again, it's like, as someone who's a more recent add to the fandom or, you know, like within the last few years, but that was a name that I heard, like, I heard Luke's name a lot and it was like a real big deal when he came out and sort of, you know, spoke up on the final shape in one of the reveal trailers like that. That single, that single handedly, like, sort of reignited a lot of people's sort of hope in the property because, I mean, we, like, even though I was a fairly recent convert, like, lightfall was real dire and there were some great seasons sort of after that, but lightfall was like, real, like, strand was cool, but it wasn't cool enough to like, save whatever Lightfall was, you know?

Yeah, I think Lightfall had to be the biggest miss in all of destiny. I mean, from story to the new characters that were introduced to just the campaign structure, it was not fun. And a lot of my friends were like, man, it was just a grind to get through. And, yeah, the seasons after that, I think, were pretty good and restored some hope. But for this big expansion that was supposed to really get us hyped for final shape, it was the opposite, I think. I think it left people like, oh, I hope, you know, how are they going to end the story after that big giant dud?

Well, and that was the thing I had ark and my brother on and we were sort of talking just about the final shape and it was like, lightfall really put them in a question where it was like, are they going to be able to land this plane? That, and, and they did, you know, obviously, like, final shape is, is killer. Like, I tell people, I'm like, this is peak bungie. Like, this takes me back to like, halo one, halo two, halo three, where it's just like, you see them and it's like they have a, they have a really, like, crystal clear vision. It's, you know, they're on fire. They're just hitting on all the right cylinders and it's, it's really just, it's masterful. It's like, it reminds you, like, oh, this is why they are sort of like a aaa. Like, these guys are a force to be reckoned with. And it's nice. It's like, I'm like, I was into that. There was this restoration of faith. But, yeah, I think it's just, it's kind of, it kind of puts us just in sort of a weird space because, yeah, it's, we go back to this idea that a lot of people, we did think that, hey, like, final shape, it's hitting. It's hitting and. No, like, everybody is like, just kind of, like singing its praises. Like Travis Northrop over at IGn, he's been a, he's been a destiny fan for years, and he's like, he's one of their, their critics. Like, he's, he's. In my opinion, he's one of the, the best, he's one of the best reviewers that they have. Like, he does, he's, he's a contractor with them, but, like, just, like, just does it does a really bang up job of, like, sort of telling you. He removes a lot of his own personal bias to a certain extent. And he, I think he actually reviewed final shape and gave it, like, a six or a seven where he's like, it's fine if. I don't know if he was even. He might have even. I think he gave it a six, but he was pretty hard on it. And for him, he gave final shape a nine. So there was kind of this, like, well, you're making him happy. And it's like, everywhere you're hearing of it, like, people are like, like, and I think, like, going into it, there was a lot of people who were like, I'm going to see this thing to the end. And then you play final shape. It's like, no, I'm sticking around for a little bit.

So, yeah, we played final shape and I had bought, like, just the normal version of final shape. And if, you know, destiny, there's, like, the collector's edition that comes out with everything for the whole year. And, and I bought the normal version of final shape, and my son and I beat it in like, a week, and we beat it. And I immediately went out and paid for, like, the annual pass because I'm like, I was like, I was one of those people were like, I just need to finish this story and then I'm done. And then I finished that story and I thought this is the greatest game I've ever played, you know, not, it was, it was great, you know, and.

I thought I just, it's easily game of the year for me. You know, just as far as like everything I played this year, it's, it's kind of just one of those things where. Yeah, so kind of looking at this and it's like again, sort of just all the questions that are sort of arising out of this and it's a lot has come out that, you know, frankly, you know, I think I'm pretty comfortable saying like this seems like a bit of a writing of the ship and frankly, like, and again, I'm a little more positive on Sony than you are, but I think like it, it's actually speaks to PlayStation in the sense that they did really. I mean they're, they're going to be finding roles for 155 more people. They're going to be spinning out some of these people into a new team where it's like, and if you count that 220 plus the 155, you know, they're probably getting rid of 3400 people. Like there's going to be a serious drop off in staffing and, you know, and bungie moving forward is going to be bungie proper moving forward is really going to be like focusing in on Destiny two and marathon. One of the other things that has come out of this and is that there is going to be a restructuring to how sort of like content rolls out. There's going to be like smaller, big expansions. Like I wasn't quite on. Have you done much sort of reading on this or do you understand? I was like, I don't really get it, but do you?

Yes, I don't either. Some of the information seems a little contradictory because I've heard, I've heard we're getting like an expansion and then like a small content pack. I've heard we're not getting any expansions at all. You know, I've, I've heard that there getting rid of the seasonal model and I've heard no, the seasonal model is changing. So I think on that regard we're probably gonna have to wait until Bungie announces something official. And it could be, to be totally honest with how bad things have been, it could be that they're not entirely sure what the plan is moving forward. But I do think that there will have to be changes to how they release content just because of smaller teams but also getting rid of a lot of that bloat that has developed over the last couple of years.

Yeah. And like the one thing that I did sound like a little appealing to me was that you would have, like, smaller sort of like big content updates. So they said something along the lines of, like, shadowfall or maybe a little bit bigger as far as, like a sort of a content, like, content expansion, you know, DLC kind of thing. And then what they would do is you'd sort of have alternating years and then you'd have something like, I really liked into the light. And apparently that was going to be like, on the off year, there'd be something like that where it'd be like, there'd be a mode with maybe some light story and those were going to be like the two big thrusts and then they are sort of, they've moved into this episodic thing, which is really, it's just, it's just the, it's, it's just seasons with a different schedule, new name.

Yeah.

And frankly, I think it's like, one of the things I would say is that what I've seen is that when you give these guys the time that they need, and I think, like, lightfall was like, they weren't ready, final shape wasn't ready. They weren't ready. And I think, like, just looking back at life all, it was, like, so obvious to me that they just kind of threw that thing together and they had, like, pieces and they just, it was, it was kind of messy and it was slap dash and it was like, it works and, but it just, I think, you know, you give them a little bit of time. And I really liked into the light. You know, I'm going to reiterate that, like, into the light was awesome in my, in my opinion. I had so much fun with that.

One of the things that they've said is, like, into light is kind of a little bit of a model. And I think, again, as we talk about, like, final shapes, shape and going from light fall into final shape into the light was, I think something that got a lot of people hyped right beforehand is because it was, it was small but it was free and the content was great. And if we're gonna get more things like that, I think the fan base will still be very happy.

Yeah. And I think just sort of as a quality of life thing, like, one of the things, like the focus farming, like being able to say, like, I want to just farm this weapon and having a higher drop rate on that so that you can actually get the roles that you want, I think that's like, bring back, like, put things like that in there. Frankly, I've been a big fan of, like, doing the legendary exotic mission rotation. You can, like, they give you guaranteed red boxes from those, those seasons. I'm. I'm a big, like, I'm a big fan of that stuff where it's like, like, yeah, like, do more of this so that, like. Cause I'm not. I. I don't know about you. Like, I play, I kind of go in spurts and, like, I'll play a lot, but then I kind of dip out for a little bit, and then I come back and I play a lot. And the, the sort of, like, being in it weekly, like, I can't always do that or I don't always want to do that. And if you give me the options to sort of, like, play a little bit of catch up here and there, I totally get into that. How do you feel about those sort of moves?

Yeah, so I think all those things are really good. I think Destiny has been really focused on how do we get a really high player count every single week. And whether it's World of Warcraft or Destiny or even a game like helldivers two or things like that, I don't think you can maintain, like, a static player base. It's always going to fluctuate. And so keeping those casual fans happy, the guys that aren't playing 40 hours a week of Destiny two, I think, is good while still having those challenges, like, some of the things they did this year, like with cooperative focus and Grandmaster Nightfalls, that's still going to keep your hardcore fan base playing all the time. So I think that's a really good idea to say, hey, you know, we're going to kind of ride this, you know, mountains and valleys approach where we're going to have peaks of players, and that's okay. But getting people to come back, because I think the temptation for me, and I am, I will say I am someone who plays almost every week, but the temptation for me sometimes is, like, if I miss a week or two, then it's like, well, I. The way it was before, I was like, I'll never catch up. And so now I'm not gonna bother, you know, that, the, that kind of fomo type thing. And so this, the way they've made everything easier for players to find what they want is, I think, better for all players.

Yeah, I mean, I think, like, if Sony can, like, some of the moves that they made again, starting with, like, into the light and then just the, the rollout with the, like, the, the legendary rotation and everything like that, and frankly, I kind of actually really like the legendary, like, are the, the craftable exotics. I think that's kind of cool. And, and I'd like to see, I mean, the one thing that they'll never do that I kind of want them to is like, make armor meaningful. Make it, make it more than just like stat block stuff. Yes. You know, it's like I'm. And that, that kind of, like, I guess leads us to where we're kind of landing is like, let's kind of look at like best case scenario how we think this, this could play out with all this because it is very, like, it's. I think what you said is real true. We're just going to have to see how a lot of this shakes out. And, um, I know, and again, I know there's a lot of people who are just kind of like, unhappy. You know, I'm not. I think I've got just my full disclosure. I'm not thrilled about Pete Parsons still having a role. Like, again, it's like, this is the dude. And maybe Sony's like, okay with that because, like, frankly, it, it's put them like, yeah, in one sense. Yeah, he sold them a bit of a lemon, but now they, they have sort of like a lot more. They can leverage a lot more control. And maybe they were like, kind of like for the trade off. This is what works for us. Um, you know, who knows? And again, I'm, I'm kind of hopeful because I think they have done a pretty good job historically of shepherding their properties pretty well. Like, frankly, the, the one, it's like, I don't get why horizon's that big a deal. Like, personally, I liked the first one. I thought it was really good and I, and I thought it kind of got snubbed in a lot of ways. But, like, it's, it's not that good. It's like, I don't know why this is the one that, like, you guys are running down, but it's. I do. And so I'm hopeful that what they'll be able to do is that they've kept enough of that, that creative talent and that the people who have real insight on how the model works and they'll be able to leverage that, that know how with sort of saying this is how you maintain, like, game quality and you can kind of keep your fan base, like a little more satisfied with, with some of that, that quality of life and just like, that quality, that triple A level content. And I think that, optimistically, I think that's a lot more doable now, especially since they've sort of been put on a diet. But what do you think? I mean, like moving forward. Thoughts?

Yeah. So I had a huge meltdown when all of this happened and I was like, I can't talk about it. I was emotionally broken. This is my favorite game ever. Sony's going to ruin it. It's gonna be awful. I calmed down, got some more and got some more information. And as someone who has been a fan of Destiny two, and I mean I'm an Xbox guy, so like, I've been a fan of Bungie since original Halo. As someone who's a huge bungie fan, I really think this could be in the better for the long run. I think we might wind up with a more sustainable content cycle, which is, I think one thing that Bungie has really struggled with. I think we're going to wind up with more a streamlined approach and I think whether that's, I think PvP will always be a part of it, but they're changing how they look at PvP versus PvE and some of that again, is just because of smaller teams. And I think as you point out, Sony does a great job of managing their studios. And from what we've heard this week, the biggest issue has been Bungie. Kind of like they, they make great content but they struggle to manage themselves. And if Sony can come in and help them manage themselves and streamline what they are doing, I think even if it's like less content than we're used to or things like that, I think we're more focused content and I think, I don't want to be clear. I feel awful for all the people who lost their jobs.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But, but I think in the long run destiny might be better just because of that streamlining.

Yeah, yeah. I do want to sort of like, it really sucks those, that's 220 people now who have to figure, and this is, this is in a, in a field where like if these people have been in games for a while, this is a rapidly shrinking sort of like field. Like. Yeah, like, you know, bungie's, Bungie's layoffs are just the most recent and just sort of like it's, it's kind of sweeping through the industry and it's been, it kind of just ravaging the industry for the last, almost year at this point in time. Well, year and a half, really. So it's, it's just like that's, and it's a tough market. Hopefully some of those people will find their feet, you know, or hopefully all of them will find their, their footing at some point in time. But, uh, yeah, it's like, I am a little more optimistic about it. You know, it's like, it's, even as someone who is a little more pro Sony, like, when, when it first went down, I was like, this is not good. Like, this is not good. And again, I wasn't like, I like destiny a lot. It's probably in my top ten, but it's not, like, my favorite game ever, but it's, I was like, oh, this is not good. But then sort of, yeah, given enough time, sort of like, where I was able to step away from some, some of the more, like, emotional response, I was like, this actually might be really good for them. You know, it's because you said they, like, Sony has done a really good job of, like, just managing their studios. And I think hopefully, you know, it's, and like I said, I think the thing for me, too, and I said this earlier, is that when, like, when they have something to prove, when Bungie has a little bit of fear or a little bit of fire in their belly, they really come out swinging. And I think, like, kind of what I'm hopeful is that Sony will just crack, like, Sony will find that balance where they'll crack the whip enough to, like, kind of keep them on their toes and, yeah, it's, I'm excited because I think, like, if they can figure this out, there's going to be more destiny, and I'm, I'm into that, so.

Yeah, well, and I think it's like, you know, we talk about the acquisition, I think, two years ago, three years ago for $3 billion. Yeah. So, like, Sony spent $3 billion to get Bungie, and let's be honest, bungie really is, at this point, destiny two. And I know, I know marathon's coming and everything like that. That's a lot of money. Like I said, my first initial panic was like, oh, my gosh, Sony is going to ruin destiny two. They spent $3 billion to get destiny two. They're, they're not going to ruin it. You know, they, they want to take care of it. And so, uh, especially again, with all that's come out about how mismanaged, uh, bungie is, um, Sony can only help with that. It's, it's in Sony's vested interest for destiny two to be incredibly successful. Um, and so they're going to work hard to make sure that, and they have a long, long, long track record of success.

Yeah, yeah. And I think, yeah, that's a really good point, is like, yeah, they spent $3 billion acquiring this studio. They're probably. And, you know, the reality, too, is that, like, they've been, that's just to get the studio, that's to get them in the. And they've been sort of covering the bill for, like, basically the failed financial, the financial sort of, you know, outcome of light fall or, you know, fallout from light fall and sort of the, the, the swing and a miss that was that. And they've been doing, it's like, yeah, at this point in time, it's. I don't think it's going to be just like, chop it up, get rid of it. Like, salvage what you can. It's like they want in this space. And I think. I think you're right, is that they do see this as I. And just as a sort of a thought. Right. So, hell, divers two comes out. It's this unprecedented success, but the numbers are dropping off. It's still got pretty good concurrent players, you know, on steam, but it's not like, it's not even close to the highs anymore. It's like, meanwhile, destiny has sort of been a, again, a constant presence. And it's like, I think that that's more of what they're looking for. They're looking for the long term play here and, you know, keeping destiny healthy is going to be the way forward for them, I think, in this. So, yeah, I'm. Yeah, like I said, the more I sort of look at this and listen to it, is it a bummer? Is there some stuff like it? Frankly, you know, I. I'm not trying to get, like, too preachy. I think there are some injustices that need to be, you know, some wrongs that need to be righted, but, you know, I'm not in a position to, like, pull those levers or make those things happen. And I think it's just a, it's kind of like one of those things where I am, we don't know how it's going to fall out. But I'm curious and I'm optimistic about sort of just like, the end goal. Like I said, it seems like there's going to be more destiny for years to come, and I'm cool with that. Like, I'm down with that.

Yeah, me too. Can I say one more thing real fast?

Yeah, go ahead.

So I know one of the things that they've talked about is Sony really wants to encourage the onboarding process for new players so that it's easier to pick up got a whole bunch of, like, I think, three people in our friend group into Destiny two, but it involved my son literally sitting down and, like, explaining to them the lore and how to play Destiny two for, like, 3 hours. And so if Sony can help bungie figure that out as well, I think that's really going to help out. And that's like, all these little things, you know, again, like the overnight success of hell divers, too, versus, I mean, like, you know, talk about, talk about, like, my literal favorite games of all time. Destiny is the current one, but uncharted is, like, in my opinion, the greatest video game series of all time. Like, every single game, in my opinion, was a hit. And then that conclusion was, was just so good. And so, like, Sony. Sony knows how to get players to play their games. They know how to get players. They don't make games that their players enjoy. And they know how to keep turning out, just hit after hit after hit. And so if they can refine the, you know, like, we've got the final shapes, but we've also got the light falls. If they can get. So bungie to be consistent and bring new players in, I think Destiny two's future, this is the hopium speaking. Destiny two's future could be brighter even than it is right now.

Yeah, dude, I'll tell you what. If they give me sort of like a, I'll say, like ten to 15 hours sort of campaign like that I can do as a fire team or just single player, that sort of gives me a really clean onboarding experience the whole way through like that. Honestly, that's what I wanted, like, two, three years ago when I started, and it was like, you know, it's like, and give me some of the lore beats and the story beats and sort of help me to understand this world a little bit better. Like, yeah, dude, that'd be sick. Like, I would. I would pay. I would pay $60 for that. Like, I'm like, just like, take my money. Like, yeah, I'll play this, but, yeah, I. Yeah, like, I think, like, you got me. You got me on that hopium a little bit, man. So it's like, like, you're kind of like, yeah, I think that's, like, been destiny's biggest problem for a long time is the onboarding. And it's like. And not just like now. What I will say is that, frankly, I think final shape is a great place for people to jump on just because you, you get a really tool, really cool tool set right out the gate. Like, prismatic is awesome. It's got a, like. And it. It seems like they're only going to add to it. And that's really the way that, like, I want to play play anyways. So I'm just. I'm saying, like, they've got an okay jumping on point, but if you could really help people, like, fill in the gaps with. With just the lore sort of gaps and just the story beats and actually just sort of, like, kind of, like, ramp them up to just basically sort of. Yeah, the onboarding issue, like, if they do that, like, it's just chef kiss, so. Yeah. So. But, um, any sort of closing thoughts, anything that you. You really just need to get off your chest before we. We sort of land. Land this?

No, I mean, I know I've been pro sony the entire time, but I. I do think it's super awesome that Sony worked really hard to find spots for as many people as possible. Um, they didn't have to do that. Uh, I don't think Microsoft has done that with some of their recent layoffs. So kudos to Sony for understanding it's a tough time and trying to make sure that people who as many people as could wouldn't be out in the dark.

Yeah. Yeah, that was pretty cool that, like, you know, the more you. I sort of read about that, I was like, you know, I like it. It sucks, but it's like. Yeah, it does feel like, kind of like a cool move, you know, to just, like, try and mitigate, like, try to, like, stem some of the bleeding. Um, so, yeah, it, like you said, it's a bummer that, you know, those 220 people have to, you know, and this. This, again, this is the second wave of layoffs. Um, yeah. But, yeah, at the same time, it's. Yeah, we do kind of. I don't know, it's. It's just. It's. It's a wild world out there right now, so. In video game land. But, uh, yeah. Well, Jeff, I want to thank you for your time. Dude, it was an absolute blast. Like, I thank you so much for. For jumping on here. I had a great time. I hope you had a great time. If. If you want, you know, where can people find you on the interwebs?

Oh, good golly. Um, so I'm not on Twitter. I'm on threads, and I think I'm just Jeff Wofford on threads. I'm on discord, and I think I'm Pastor Wolf 13 on Discord, and I'm. I'm in the backlog beatdown. Uh, uh, discord server so you can. That's the easiest way to find me, probably.

Yeah. Yeah. You are in there. He's also in the dear critics fantasy league chat, but you guys can't, you guys don't get access to that. So that's, that's only for the, the truly elite. Again, thanks so much for your time tonight, Jeff, and we'll have to do this. Well, you know, I've talked to Ark and my brother about doing, like, sort of like biannual or quarterly, like, sort of like destiny dumps. And I'm definitely going to have to rope you in on one of those, so I would love moving forward. Yeah. So. All right, dude. Well, thanks again for your time. And until next time, guys, do the things and, you know, be good later.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the backlog Breakdown. If you want to join in the conversation, you can email [email protected] or join our Facebook group, the Backlog Book club, on Facebook and on Twitter. Our handle is, of course, you can also catch Nate and I on our social media platforms like Facebook, Twitter, and the GG app. I go by brocalope, that's spelled broccolope. And Nate goes by Nate McKeever. Till next time, loggers. You keep beating down those backlogs and we'll keep breaking down the benefits.