170: The Evil Within (Spooptober 2024)

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Backlog Breakdown. I'm one of your hosts, Nate, joined by my friend and brother in Christ, Josh. How you doing tonight, Josh?

Hey, doing good.

And we're just a couple of guys who love video games, love the church and well, we think there's conversations to be had and things to be explored and you know, hopefully with, with all of this we just seek equip and encourage our brothers and sisters in the church to engage with the medium, the genre, so to speak, just with a little bit more wisdom and yeah, that's it. So buckle up because we're going to be talking about a Calvinist video game tonight. Josh, do you know that it's a Calvinist video game? We believe in total depravity. This game is called Evil Within. So I think it's just sort of like lining up there. It's actually not a Calvinist video game at all. It is.

That's good, that's good. I hadn't thought about that.

But yeah, it's low hanging fruit. Word association humor. I don't know. Well, it's the end of October and you know what's wild is that when this goes live, it will be the day before Reformation Day, or as the pagans like to call it, Halloween. So Hallows Eve, we are at the peak of spooky season and it's one of those things that every year about this time we play spooky games. And so we did play a spooky game, it's called Evil within. And we're going to talk about that a little bit later on and but until then I think. Well, Josh, it's been, it's been an undisclosed amount of time since I last spoke to you, my friend. So like how have you been, man? How's it going, Josh?

Yeah, generally doing good. So just today fighting with a little bit of allergies. So if I sound kind of nasally, more nasally than normal. I know I normally sound nasally, but more so I'm not, I'm not sick, just some, some allergy stuff going on. But outside of that we've been doing good. We have not gotten sick or anything like that. I say we like the family because obviously stuff like that, sickness jumping around family can, can be pretty debilitating and I'm sure actually you have a lot to say about that. But no, we, we actually took a trip last week to Wisconsin and it funny one autumn in the Midwest is beautiful. Just autumn's, the tall trees and all the colors and. Yeah, and it's unseasonably warm. So it was basically in the 60s the whole time that we were there, which is beautiful weather. You know, you get up and it's chilly, and that's nice. And then it warms up throughout the day, like. Yeah, it was. It was awesome. And, yeah, to see all the vibrant colors on the trees, which is not something I have ever experienced, because you don't see that in Texas.

You guys don't have trees in Texas.

Well, I do take umbrage with that statement. In Austin, there are the oak trees, like, huge oak trees, which. But they don't grow tall. They grow wide. And so it's a very different experience seeing a lot of tall trees. It's. That Austin, at least, does not have an autumn. Basically, it goes straight from summer into. Well, what we experience is winter, which I suppose would be more like an autumn here in the Midwest, but it doesn't. The trees and the colors. The colors just are not there. So to see all these tall trees and to see all these beautiful colors was awesome. I went for a worship leader conference through our. It's not a denomination. It's an association. But it was a good time. Yes. Yes. We had a worship leader gathering.

And so that was Ronnie Martin there. Isn't he part of the eoc?

Oh, he was not, but he's not. He's not a worship leader. He's just a pastor. No, just a pastor.

Just a pastor.

Actually, I don't know if he's still pastoring. I know he recently left his church, but I know at one time he was pastoring two congregations, so I don't know if he's still pastoring at all or if he's just focusing on writing right now or just focusing on music. You know, he could be doing that, too.

I follow him on the socials, and he just moved his recording studio.

Okay.

Or his recording space to some other place.

Okay. Okay. Wasn't he, like, in Ohio or something like that? I feel like it was.

I believe so.

I feel like it was Midwest, but. Yeah, just a.

That's, like. That's, like, part of the Midwest where, like. No, nobody went. Nobody wants to lay claim to Ohio. We. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna disparage this thing. I actually got in a little bit of trouble. One of our patrons, like, chastised me because apparently I slandered his home state. Yeah, that's okay. I'm okay with that.

And as Hawthorne Heights says that my heart is in O. So cut my wrist and black My eyes.

Anyways, you went to a, like a.

Worship leader, worship leader gathering conference kind of a thing, and it was great. Made a lot of cool connections. Yeah. Some good teaching that I still need to kind of think through. But it was a good time. It's a good time, but brought my family, so we went out and did a bunch of stuff while we were there. There was a free zoo. It was in Madison, Wisconsin. Really beautiful town. You know, this time of year that we went. And lots of stuff to do. Lots.

Did you have cheese curds?

We did not, actually. Surprisingly, I was just talking about this with the.

Shame on you.

Yeah. No, the whole time. We did go somewhere that they had cheese curds on the menu one evening. But I was. I was searching to, like, see where the best cheese curds were, and it, like, wasn't. I had heard that the place that we were at, the cheese curds were just okay. So I was like, eh, I'm not going to buy them just to get. Okay. Cheese curds.

Were they, like, I want to get fried. Were they the fried cheese curds or they were just, like, regular cheese curds? Because you can get that.

They're always fried.

No, you can get, like, ones that aren't.

Oh, okay. Yeah, I've only had fried ones because it's not a thing in Texas. It's only been since I've been here that I've had cheese curds anyways. No, I did not. Funny enough, even though I visited Wisconsin, I did not have any cheese curds. My wife is lactose intolerant, which limits some of that stuff. But she wouldn't have prevented us from getting it. But, you know, that's neither here nor there. So. Anyways, we've had a great time as a family. I feel like there was something else I was gonna mention about that, but it's gone now.

Sorry, I asked you about cheese curds and I just hijacked the whole thing.

Yeah. The only thing I was gonna say, this is what it was, is that the fact that I turned to my wife at one when we're just, like, marveling at how beautiful the trees are and stuff like that, I'm like, babe, we live in Iowa and we're taking a bit of a family vacation in Wisconsin, and we're really enjoying it. Like, none of those things I ever would have thought would ever come out of my mouth.

It's almost like you guys were meant to be Midwesterners.

Yeah. It's almost like God knew what he was doing, you know?

Yeah.

It's like he had a plan for us, some good works for us to keep.

We felt in love with corn country and now we're, you know, so weird.

So anyways. No, it's. It's been a good time. It's been a good time. How have you been since our last recording time? Well, our next recording time. How have you been since our next recording?

Since our next recording time we broke time. Well, it's very.

Yeah. Apt for.

You mentioned disease. And we did have another go around. Byron got ham foot and mouth again.

Well, he does have two hands.

He does have two hands. He has two feet. He's only got one mouth. But if he would just stop putting things in there that don't belong. Yeah, but, yeah, he came. He. We kept him home from church a couple Sundays ago because he was like. He was just like, kind of fussy and he was running a little bit of fever and we ended up having to, like, stay home with him. Like, Megan stayed home with him one day. I stayed home with him one day and. But yeah, he ran through hand, foot, mouth, and it was like. It was. I don't think his. I don't think it was as, like, it didn't seem as severe in some ways as the first go around because the first time it was like all in his mouth and his throat, which made it like. And it was really scary because he just didn't want to eat or drink or anything.

Yeah.

So it was a really rough couple of days this time it was just a lot more. It was kind of like all over the place. It wasn't concentrated as much, so it was like he had some marks on his hands. He had like, spots on his feet and around his mouth. And I think, like, the pain was a little more distributed and some on his butt. I think the pain was like, a little more distributed. And he's just like, in more general pain than versus, like. So in some ways that was harder. But, you know, he's through that. He's going to be. His second birthday is coming up here soon. That's exciting. Yeah. But, you know, in other news, I. I had put a bid on another route, and it was kind of a route that I wasn't expecting to get. And I found out today that I got it officially.

Hey.

It had been rumored for like a week that I was probably gonna get it.

Okay.

And so. And it's. It's. It. It's just nice because it's. It's significantly. It's a. It's a much nicer route than Mine, that's like, okay than, like, I live on my current route, and that's kind of a bummer that I'm gonna. But I am just gonna be, like, five minutes away, 10 minutes away at most. So I'll probably still be able to come home for lunch occasionally or if I, like, need to change, like, you know, stuff like that. It won't be, like, too far away.

Okay.

But, yeah, so it's just kind of like. It's good. It's just. It's a much nicer route than mine. Like, the guy who was on there, he just retired not too long ago, and he was on there for, like, 20 years or something like that, so it's okay. It's a really. It's a really nice route. So. Yeah, I'm not mad about it. Like, I'm like. I was.

Yeah. Pretty awesome.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. I'm trying not to get like, too. Whatever about it, but I. I was. I was pretty stoked this morning when I found out. I just kept saying the word sick. It's like, that's so sick.

Yes, sick.

I was definitely, you know, on the hype train a lot earlier. So, like, I said, that hasn't become official, Like, I think so. Actually, this week is my last week on my current route. I just found that out, too. It was like. So. Yeah, so. Yeah, well. But, yeah, I'm excited. It just. It's like. It's like one of those things, like, come short. Like, short of a. Just like a, like, massive overhaul to the office. Like, I can see myself being on this route for years to come.

For 20 years, maybe.

Maybe. I mean, maybe not.

I mean, I will die on this route, perhaps.

I mean, there are better routes in the office, but it's like, I just don't know if I would have a reasonable shot at any of them. And this one's got, like, a good mix of walking and driving that I'm not mad about. So. Yeah.

Nice.

Yeah. But we are a video game podcast.

Yes.

We like to talk about the video games that we play. We also like to take a few minutes and talk about some of the other bits of media that we've been in lately. So what have you been into lately, Josh?

Okay, so grab your headphones and turn up the sound.

We're here to tell you what's going down. This hurts my soul.

Oh, I know it does. It's half the reason.

We haven't made any AI music in a while to torture each other with.

That's true. It has been a while. We've. Yeah, yeah. We need to get those juices flowing again.

Did we. Did we play the. It's been.

Yeah.

Okay. I couldn't remember. I know I said it. Oh, man. Oh, no. This is going to be awful. Like, we're already fading. Oh, my.

No, no.

Have you been into lately, Josh?

Yeah. So a few things. Been watching. So we're in the Midwest, you know, so we've been watching Fargo, so that's fun. We finished up the second season and heard from some good friends of ours who, like, friends who say that this is like, his favorite TV show ever. And he said some of the best seasons are the first two. And then the fifth season that somewhat recently came out. And so we started the fifth season also because one of the characters is on Ted Lasso. So the girl who plays Keely. Emaciated. She is in Fargo. I know that that wasn't very good.

No, she looks.

She doesn't look healthy.

She looks like she has an eating disorder.

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm not the only one. So I say it out loud. Dang it. I said it to my wife, and then I said it to my friend, and I'm just like.

I would affirm that. It's like, I just look at her and I'm like, you don't look healthy. Sweet.

You're not. Okay.

I need you to eat it. I need you to eat some cheeseburgers. Come on.

Yes. Or cheese curds.

You know, cheese curds.

Because you're in Fargo anyways.

You're in the Midwest. Come on.

She's on this season, and frankly, I just started it because I wanted to hear if she does a Midwestern accent because she has such a thick British accent in Ted Lasso. Right. And she pulls it off. I think she lays it on a bit thick. In fact, I don't think it's just her. I think it's like the whole cast in this. In season five, they. They go hard with the. With a Minnesota accent. Right. Or, you know, so they're just talking like this, you know, and everyone just sounds so nice when they're talking to you. Like, we could just be the nicest friends on the block ever. If you want to come over and.

We can have to. But you have to lace that with just, like, metric tons of just passive. Passive aggression.

Yes.

You know, and just deadpan sarcasm.

Yeah. So anyways, we've been watching through season five, and that has been fun and weird. It's. Yeah. It's odd. It also has. It has Jon Hamm. And it has one of the kids from Stranger Things. I can't remember his name in Stranger Things. He came kind of later. He's a guy that everyone talks about his hair. He works at the ice cream show. Can't think of his name. Oh, I didn't watch Stranger Things in forever. I didn't even see the last season.

I really liked the first season. I liked the second season less.

But.

Yeah, I know who you're talking about.

Rehash.

Yeah, pretty much. It was just like the. And I just like Stranger Things. Like, I think the first season was really pretty special. And after that, I was just like, I don't care. Like, don't care. But, yeah. Is it James? Rick?

I don't. Steve. Steve.

Steve.

It's Steve. Steve's name. Yeah. He plays a character that you absolutely hate. And actually, that's what I'll say about this is that it's very good at making characters that you absolutely hate for various reasons. Like, they just do a really good job of creating these people who are super arrogant or. Yeah. Just full of themselves and belittle other people and just the way that they talk. Not even. You know, it's not like, f bombs every other word. It's not that. It is just. But the words that they use, it's just so ugly and demeaning and just. Yeah. You hate them anyways.

Yeah.

So there's a plug for Fargo Season 5. It's violent, but I just.

I've been. I know you started Only Murders season, Is it. Were we on three or four?

Four. Yeah.

Fourth season, I started to watch it. I just. I wanted to talk about this briefly. I, like, watched, like, the first two episodes, and I. I don't know. I don't know how I feel about it. Yeah, it definitely feels like that core crew, like Steve Martin, Martin Short, and Selena Gomez, like, their performances feel really pretty, like, dialed in, but it is getting, like, noticeably weirder. Like.

Yeah.

Like more of a cartoon, right?

Yes. Yeah, that's my critique of it. Yes. Every character is a cartoon now.

Yeah, it just. Because if.

Excuse me. All the new ones.

Well. And, like, so the first season, things were, like, fairly, like, it was lighthearted, but it, like, you know, like, Martin Short's character was like. He's a bit of, like, a little.

He's eccentric.

He's just.

He's an odd thing. Yeah. But that's also Martin Short.

Yeah, that's Martin Short. That's just what he does. Second season, it felt like a little. Almost like a little too Edgy.

Yeah, it went way down. Way down.

Like, they were just, like, trying, like, too hard kind of thing. Third season, it felt like most of the cast was okay, but then, like. So Paul Rudd is Paul Rudd, and he's just his Paul Rudd thing. Yeah. But then, like, you know, with. Is it. Is it Glenn Close? Is she play Loretta?

No. Why can't. I think. Yeah, Meryl. I feel really stupid. Yes, it is. It is.

Okay. It's Meryl Streep. I guess Glenn Close and Meryl Streep don't look that much alike, but they do kind of look a little alike.

I could see. Yeah, I could see.

So she felt like a little bit of a cartoon character. But then, like, the.

The.

Son and mother thing, like, that felt very cartoonish and just like, I guess, like, in the first season and there were some oddballs. Like, the dude with the cats who's just like, he's real weird. But it just, like, it didn't feel like it leaned on that too, too much. And it felt like it had, like, a little bit more anyways. But, like, yeah, this fourth season, it just does feel like everything's, like, not bad, but it's, like, it still. It feels fun, but it just also, it doesn't have some of the personality of, like, the first season, I guess. I don't know. I just wanted to ask you, because I know that you've been watching it too, and I was like, is it just me?

No. No.

Yeah.

Yeah. All the new characters feel like cartoons. Some of them do end up kind of feeling a little earned. But I don't know if I'm just biased to the actors themselves. So, like, Molly Shannon is crazy, but that's also kind of Molly Shannon.

That's just what she does in everything.

So it does feel, like, slightly earned with her. Although it's when you have everyone going crazy that she doesn't like in this weird way, she doesn't stick out as much, and it just feels weird. Why is everyone acting like Molly Shannon? Like, she can act like Molly Shannon, but everyone's acting crazy.

My favorite line, though, is from the first or second episode where Zach Galifianakis says, like, I'm kind of thinking I have a bit of a riskier take on you. I'm gonna play you as successful and just totally, like. Like, that just totally snubs Martin Short's character. And I was just like, oh.

Oh.

Like, I just. I love Zach Galifianakis and some of that stuff. It's like. Like, he's so good. When he does stuff like that, it's so good. It's like. Oh, yeah. You can really pull off, like, the kind of, like, the snide, the like. Yeah. You're not just a raging lunatic all the time. You could pull off, like, the more subtle, like, just. It made me miss Between Two Ferns. Anyways.

Yeah. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. I slot it in as better than the second season, but not as good as the third. First season is still the best. He's first, third, and then. And then this one underneath that. And then second was.

I did, like, the third season a lot, but, yeah, first season was the best. Anyways. Yeah, I didn't mean to sidetrack you. You were talking about Fargo.

That's okay.

It just. Yeah, I was like. No, I was like. Because I'm not really watching it, like, hardcore, but it's like I've watched a couple of episodes and just right off the crack, it just feels like this is just, like a lot more. And I like absurdism, but it just feels like a little almost like too slapsticky or something, where it's just like I'm just like. Maybe slapstick isn't the right word, but.

Nah, I mean, you said cartoony. Yeah. They don't feel like real people. They don't feel like they would exist in a world and, like, be able to have lives. You know, you think of, like, the directors and stuff like that, and it's just, like, weird. Like, off putting. Yeah. No, I agree. I agree. But, yeah, Fargo is good. We're enjoying it. Only a few episodes in, I talked. Well, I will talk about it on the next episode. Right. About some music stuff. Getting into music I have not listened to in a long time. And I found this band that. Well, I was pitched the question if there was a band that I used to listen to that never got the. The fame that they deserved. So, like, basically a band that no one else had ever heard of that you think is really good. And I found it. And it's this. This British band called Canterbury. They're no longer a band because, you know, they never got big, but I. I really like what they do, and I've been listening to their stuff again. Yeah, right. Yes. Yes. I like what they did. So check out Canterbury. It might not be on all streaming services. Heavy in the Day is the name of one of their albums, and there's a song called Gloria that is. There's one of their singles from that, and we have listened to it so much, my kids are, like, humming it and Singing it around the house, which is a lot of fun. It has a really cool music video where it's all shot twice as fast as normal. Which is interesting because that means like they would have had to have played or pretend played the song twice as fast and mouthed the words at double speed of what the song is actually recorded at. But then it slowed down. So the music video like everything matches. I say everything. The drummer's not playing the same hits, but it looks as though the singer is actually singing the words in the correct speed while everything is moving in slow motion, if that makes sense. So it's a cool little concept for music video for the song Gloria by Canterbury. It's a good time. The last.

Yeah, throw a link in the.

Oh, that's a great idea. I will do that to go. To go check it out. It. Yeah, it's kind of like energetic indie rock. Actually, you know what? I would compare them to like the Arctic Monkeys. I was never into the Arctic Monkeys, but I know tons of people who were. And every time I listened to them I was like, oh, this kind of sounds like Canterbury. And I like Canterbury a lot. I just never gave Arctic Monkeys the time of day.

So I like hate the Arctic Monkeys. But I just like. It was like they were definitely one of those bands where I was like, I just. They're fine. I don't see what the big deal is, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, I've known people who are like super into him. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I just. I never gave him the time of day, so they just didn't do it for me. Right. Yeah. Well, maybe Canterbury will. I don't know. We'll see. Last thing that I will recommend that I've been into is I actually picked up a couple books and I haven't read through a lot of them, but. And a little self serving. They were for church, just for some ideas on things. But it's this. It's kind of a series, sort of. But the first book is Visual Theology by Tim Challleys and Josh Byers and they put out a second one that's a visual theology guide to the Bible that gives a bunch of stuff on the Bible. So it's like. It's basically like infographics, like well done infographics about. In visual theology. It's about theological concepts but then it also explains it. So it's kind of misleading. It's not just infographics, it's an infographic and then like an encyclopedia entry for the next three pages. Explain.

Yeah, it's a Little bit of a theological primer. Primer, yeah. But with really. Because like Charlie's does like the really nice infograph graphics. Like he's. He's always been pretty good for that, so.

Yeah. Yeah. And they're little coffee table books, so they're pretty cool. You could also purchase prints of them on the website, which is cool. And Josh Byers lives real close in Des Moines, which is kind of cool. Didn't know that until I started searching around. So, you know, I was going to say I could reach out to him, but I don't know why I would. But he is on staff at a church not too far from here, so.

That'S pretty, pretty cool.

Visual theology. Yeah. Check it out. But that's what I've been into. What media do you have to report on on this podcast?

Yeah, I'm not watching tons. I've been watching some anime. There's watching more Jojos.

Okay.

Which is. That's still just a fever dream. Yeah, just. I started watching one called Dander Dan which is new and it's really weird. I don't know if I would recommend it, but it is sort of like Cryptid adjacent where it's like, oh, there's like a supernatural sort of like UFO kind of like element to it. So it's weird. But it's. It's anime, It's. Danidan is like. It's also like, I think TV mature, but I haven't seen anything that warrants that yet. There has been like there anyways, like, I don't think there's been anything like super gratuitous that I can think of off the top of my head. Maybe my conscience has just been seared and so somebody else will watch and they'll be like, this is perverse and disgusting. I'm like, no, but it's. It's just like it's a little fan servicey or whatever, but whatever. That's just like most anime, it's like, man, they get fan servicey and weird because the Japanese are preverts. But yeah. So not really watching too much, but I have been listening to a lot of stuff lately. So. I've listened to several books lately and some of them, all of them have been pretty good, but there's a couple. There's a series that I'm in right now that I don't know how I feel about it. I like it, but I can't. I don't know if it's. I like it because it's good or if I like it just because like it's the kind of like it's a sort of schlock that I just kind of like. I'm like, yes, give that to me. It's called Red Rising. The Red Rising trilogy. The first book is just called Red Rising. It's by a guy named Pierce Brown. It's sort of like sci fi, young adult kind of thing. And it's like what. It kind of asks the question. It's like, what if we colonized Mars and like human society became this like very caste driven thing where democracy fails and it becomes this sort of very hierarchical, kind of like authoritarian society and people are assigned colors and you kind of just live within your colors and you just. Yeah, and so it's. There's the main characters is the guy named Darrow. He's a red. Which is sort of like the bottom of the different colors and casts and there's just a series of revelations. And it's. Anyways, it's interesting. It plays a lot with sort of like Roman or Greek themes. There's a lot of. It's. I don't know, it's. It's just like. It's not great sci fi, but I'm enjoying it. It's kind of pulpy and you know, sometimes you just want something that's like. I'm not gonna like this is not like highlight, but it's, it's kind of fun and so far it's been pretty entertaining. It's a little preachy because they're like always referencing like philosophers and stuff like that. And there's definitely like some questions about just humanity that I think are kind of like. They're a little heavy handed with. But it's not bad. It's. I'm enjoying it. I don't know. Like it's, it's. It's not like a super strong recommend, but it's like I'm into it and you know, maybe go read a synopsis or something and. Or listen to like a. I don't know, it. It didn't grab me at first, but now that I got through the first book and I was like, I think I like this. And so now I'm listening to the second book and there's apparently two or three trilogies.

Oh, wow.

Okay.

So after a series of revelations, does he start a revolution?

Pretty much or. Kind of. But yeah, I mean it's sort of like. Yeah. Rising from the ashes, like Hunger Games kind of like thing. It's not super. Yeah, it's, it's not gonna like blow people away. It's like I never saw this coming. It's like, yeah, okay, yeah, it's a, it's pretty trophy, but it's gotcha fairly.

It's not gonna, it's not gonna make anyone angry though. They're not going to be seeing red after reading it, right?

Stop. Stop it. That's awful. I hate it. No, no, it's, it's not.

I might rise to the challenge. We'll see.

But sort of moving on here, something a little more serious and it kind of falls into that pop theology kind of category. But I had mentioned reading that book Life is Hard, God is Good, let's Dance by Brant Hansen not too long ago. I'm really liking that Hanson is kind of quickly becoming one of those guys that I just really like his style and I like what he has to say and I think he, he has a lot like there's a self effacing, humble and winsome wisdom that I think is much needed in today's sort of evangelicalism, it's. And just the broader church culture. But he wrote another book and I think this came before Life is Hard, God is Good, let's Dance. It's called the Men we need and it's just sort of a response to some of the Christian masculinity stuff where I think he actually levels some really good challenges at men and young men because he's not a very like manly man. He's kind of, he's, he's kind of a weirdo, kind of a dork. And yeah, I just thought, I thought it was really good and I thought he really again offered some really not just like good like insightful challenges and helpful challenges but like just I think like frankly I took a lot of encouragement from what he said, some of what he wrote too. And again it's not like a full cosign where there'd be like bits and bops where I'd be like eh. I think that that one's a bit of a swing and a miss but overall it's just, it's a really challenging and or encouraging book that I think would benefit a lot of guys to just at least sit with. So yeah, I think it's a good book. Lastly, and this is just a video and, and it's a bit of a preemptive but one of the guys shared a video in the Discord in the Onwards and Upwards channel and there's a podcast called for the Gospel with Costi Hinn and he had a. Another guy on there, Jeremy Volo, and they discussed the episode title. And it was like, I haven't seen this in their podcast, like, audio feed yet, but in the. On their YouTube channel, there's an episode from about a month ago at this point in time called A Theology of Fun. And it's not too, too long. It's maybe 30, 40 minutes. And it's. It's brilliant. I mean, I think.

Okay, okay.

In. In some ways, you and I have sort of been. I think for people who have been paying attention, I don't want to be. I don't want to, like, humble, brag or whatever, but I think for people who've been paying attention, it covers a lot of the same things that you and I have talked about, you know, ad nauseam, you know, over the course of this podcast. But the way Volo presents it is just. It's. It's really, it's really clean. It's really like, in the sense that, like, he. It didn't take him five years to say everything that we have, you know, about, but he, he, he. He hit some good points. He offers some good challenges and some pushback against, like, you know, basically, and, and again, you and I have. But like, he just sort of offer offers, like, a little bit of pushback against, you know, what could be considered to be like, some of the aesthetic trends in the modern church, where it's like, it's like he basically saying, like, it's okay to have fun, it's okay to enjoy good things, nice things, because God is good, He's a generous father, creation is good, but it's how you engage those things. And basically, sort of, he offers a little bit of just a framework that I think is really good. I think it's masterful. Like I said, it's sort of a summation and a clarification of I think a lot of the things that you and I have been talking about for the last four and a half, five years.

That's awesome.

It's really, really good. And it was really exciting to see somebody talking about this, see somebody else talking about this and how it is important that we reclaim this.

Yeah.

So I was, I was stoked to see that. We should probably put a link for that in the show notes as well. Yeah.

So I'll do that. Awesome. Awesome.

It will. You were saying?

Oh, I was just saying that that's super cool, except that I am always serious, despite when I wear a bacon costume to record a podcast. Yeah, I don't like having fun.

No, I can tell. I can tell. But what have you been playing, man? Like, you know.

Oh, yeah.

What do you been in the Vidi game sort of realm?

Well, not a lot and not too much. Mostly what I've been playing is the Evil Within. I finished up that game and we will talk more about it. I will say that I enjoyed my time with it. I will say that. But I did finish it. So I get a negative point to my Beatdown score because I have had it for quite a while. So stoked on that to finally beat it. I will say, you know, maybe this is. I know that I take longer to beat games than how long to beat typically has games for, but man, I think my. Even a few hours more than what was on how long to beat was not counting all of the times that I died, because this game has a death counter. I don't know what your death counter is, but mine, I think it was 209. 209 deaths throughout the course of the campaign. So I'm not very good at it, but I died quite a bit.

I did turn the difficulty down after a while because I was just like. That was more about. Like. I didn't. I was. Yeah, I just was like I was in a section where it's just like I need more ammo and this. I'm just not having fun.

Okay.

So. But yeah, I. I think I died like 50 times. 52 times.

Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. So considerably less than me. So, yeah, I'm sure there were a number. A handful of hours of progress that was lost just dying and trying bits over again. And the game is like. It has a death counter. It knows you're going to die a lot. Like, that's. You know, it's hard. It does things that you have to learn from your deaths kind of a thing, even though that's not part of the narrative, you know. Anyways, anyways, yeah, no, I did enjoy my time with it. So negative point there. The only other game that I've been playing is Sakuna Rice and Ruin of Rice and Ruin is what it's called playing that on Switch. And funny enough, similarly to the Evil within, the more that I play it, the more that I have been enjoying it. It's just. Yeah, it's. It's fun. It's opening up a little bit more, getting some more abilities. I'm really feeling out the combat. I know I said earlier it feels kind of floaty and to a certain extent it does. Like that's still there, but now I'm feeling it out. You've got. You've got more abilities that you can use. You can really use the floatiness to kind of. To move around kind of hordes of enemies pretty well. So I'm enjoying it quite a bit and gotten through a few years in game years. Wow. So.

So yeah, you're really kind of like pretty deep into that then.

I'm like 10, 15 hours, something like that at this point. A year. Like the way that it's set up is that the day cycle in the game each season is three day cycles. So a day cycle is basically a month in game.

Okay.

So it's only 12 of those makes a year. But I've had three. Three harvests. Yeah. Three rice harvests already. So anyways, I'm enjoying my time with it. Yeah. Yeah. Quite a bit. Even though it's. It's not like it's breaking and you know, oh, this is. This is a standout game. But I've learned quite a bit more about the game also in its development. It was made by a little indie studio, Edelweiss. This is their biggest project. They've only had a handful of other ones. Little Japanese indie. Indie studio. So for that like I think the production values are actually fan flippantastic for a game like this. So yeah, no, I am enjoying my time. But I won't say it's the best thing ever or this is a must play. No, but I'm enjoying it quite a bit, making my way through it.

That kind of like pushes it up my list then because it's like I have that and I have started it I think at least two or three times. And maybe it's. Maybe I'll just sort of like drill down on that a little bit maybe because I'm kind of in that space where it's like I. With everything sort of like wrapped up outside of like I need to play. Try and play through a link to the past before the end of the year. But that like, that's the only must play thing on my docket right now.

Yep.

So cool. Cool, cool, cool.

Pretty cool time. Yeah.

Yeah. Any. Anything else or is that pretty much it for the video games?

That's all that I've been playing with the negative one to my score from the evil within. That brings me to negative nine for the year. So almost at my goal of negative 10. I think I can beat another game by the end of the year. Right. Unless I'm too tempted to purchase more because that is. That is certainly a thing, you know, metaphor refantazio is out there.

Okay. So you're sort of team me up Here, and I'm just going to jump right into it. I played the Metaphor refantazio demo and I haven't purchased it yet. I'm probably going to wait until like the end of the year, maybe use some like, Christmas tip money. I'm sure all in on that game. I already told my brother Deuce, I said, like, I said I will buy the digital version. I'm also, like, kind of trying to keep my eyes out open for like, just. Because occasionally you can get like the. The cool collector's edition stuff on the cheap. And so I'm gonna like, probably at some point in time, probably double dip and see if I can scoop up like a cool collector's edition on the cheap later on. But yeah, I am. That demo I got, I think pretty much as far as you can in the demo. And it's. It's very Persona Coded, which isn't. Shouldn't be a surprise. Does kind of remind me like, so it's got like the day, night, day, evening cycle kind of stuff and. Sure.

Yep.

It's got this system called Archetypes that is basically a Persona Coded job system. But I really like the implementation there. I don't know, there's a lot of like, really cool stuff about the game that I think if you like Persona games, if you like Shin Megami Tensei games, this is going to sort of just be like another really solid entry into like, that family. Yeah, it's. The demo is really good and everybody who's been playing it is really sort of like gaga for and you know, like, so if. I mean, there are some people who don't. Don't like those types of games, so they're probably not gaga for it, but I haven't purchased that yet. But it kind of like got me. Got the Jesus falling. I did. And I'm going to talk here. I did get the canon ending for Outer Wilds, you know, for the next episode.

Yeah.

So I probably do need to record a bit of an addendum.

Okay.

I was thinking maybe like just like five minutes that you could sort of tack in somewhere in there and just say, like, hey, you know, I. I'm not sure where a good place would be to do that, because it does. I do think. I guess this is like sort of like spoilers, but like, actually beating that game did sort of move the goalpost for me a little bit where I was like, I ended up liking a lot more.

Oh, interesting.

I still think. I still think there's like, it's. It's a game I do. Like, I do think it gets in the way. Like, I don't think it needs to be as hardcore as it actually is. Okay. But that's. Yeah, neither.

That's a conversation for another episode next week.

Yeah, so. So I did get the canon. So I will take a negative one point, which.

Okay, cool.

Would have put me at negative one, I believe. So I would have been in the El Negativo, except I'm a weak, weak man. And I got a coupon, like an email from Best Buy, and it was like, he, you know, you're a member of the Best Buy rewards program. I'm like, yeah, I guess I am. I've been one for, like, 15 years. And they're like, here's a $20 coupon. And I was like, sick. Yeah, so that's pretty cool. I pre order the physical copy of the PlayStation 5 Dragon Quest 3 HD 2D game when that comes out. Well, here in a few weeks. So I did take a positive one for that. So put me back at zero. And then I was like, well, I'm just kind of looking around. And I was talking to Parker, and for some reason I said, yeah, I'd like to get Unicorn Overlord if it, like, the collector's edition ever goes on sale. And he, like, he was like, let me check something. And he hopped on and whooped. Had it on sale for like 60, 70 bucks. And it normally goes for like 130. 120. So I was like, well, I will snap that up. So I did pick that up as well. So there's another plus one or. No, my math is bad here. So that would put me at positive two. Yes. Okay. That would put me at positive two.

Okay.

Because I think outer wilds put me at zero, not negative one.

Zero, okay. Not negative one. Okay. Gotcha, gotcha.

I. At some point in time, I need to just sit down and do like, well, we'll do that at the end of the year. This is just supposed to be sort of a running tally anyways. But then last night, and one of the reasons we're sort of recording this so up against the wires, last night I finally sat down, I beat Evil Within.

Okay.

And yeah, yeah, I got a negative one for that because I, too, have owned that for a number of years. And I liked it. I liked it a good bit. I don't know if I'm as high on it as you are, but I did enjoy it. It's like. It's kind of like, I don't know, maybe in some ways I might be higher on it. I don't know. We'll. We'll get to that point. But yeah, so it put. That puts my score at positive one. And for anybody, if you guys have been listening to the show for any amount of time and you're saying, what are these numbers? Well, if you've been listening for any amount of time, you know what we're talking about. Like, the Beatdown is a meta that we run all year long. Short version is you buy games, you take points, you add positive points, and you beat games that you own, you take points away and you want to get a negative score as low as possible. Well, I mean, maybe you want a big fat positive score. I don't know. Like, that seems a little, you know, not in keeping with the designed intent of the game, I guess. I don't know. But it's a matter where you run. And if you're interested in sort of checking that out and sort of like the rule system that we have for it, you can come on over to our Discord in the backlog beatdown 2024 channel in. In the Discord. It's pinned at the top there. Or you just get a hold of me and Josh and we'll send you a copy of the rules. But that being said, just something we'd like you guys to maybe think about and check out is we have a Patreon and we do. We basically, we kind of want you to think of it as a bit of a tip jar, but also maybe as like a way to partner with us that if you like what we're doing and you've already done all the sharing and the caring, you've told your friends and family about this or maybe, you know, interested parties. Hopefully you're not telling uninterested parties, because I would just. That doesn't seem really, like, mindful. Like, if they're not interested, why are you telling them about us?

Yeah, don't go to uninteresting parties.

Yeah, don't do that. Yeah, come on, be better than that. Or just party over, be the life of the party and make that party interesting.

I know you like to party and the party never stops.

Oh, well, maybe. Maybe. Depends on the party.

I like to party.

But if you'd like to partner with us in sort of what we're trying to do here, we wouldn't say no. We'd really appreciate that. But there's also perks. It's not just like, hey, give us money, right, and there's nothing for you, our patrons, that we lovingly have dubbed the Bro Chachos. Get early and uncut access to each and every episode. There's a video feed that's only available to them. They get a special role in our Discord server and they have just. And with that, and through the Patreon, they have a little more access to us. In addition to all of that, each and every one of our patrons currently has the ability to nominate a game or a topic for us to discuss. Actually, the next week's episode with Mark will be. That's a patron episode. We played the Outer Wilds because he asked us to and he gave us money and. Yeah, and we did. And we did. And that's kind of how it works. But like I said, it's one of those things where, yeah, if you. If you like what we're doing and you want to go a little bit above and beyond, you know, for as little as a buck a month, you can get access to all of that. And, yeah, so that being said, you know, guys, we have friends who do cool things. One of the things that we, we do, you know, we like to sort of like, remind people about is we mentioned the backlog Beatdown, the official app of the backlog. Beatdown is the GG app. Our buddy Charles Watson came up with this a few years ago, has gone through multiple iterations, and it's becoming really. He's trying to shape it into like, more of just like a social media for games enthusiasts kind of platform. And it's a pretty cool little product. We like it, we like Charles, and we really think you ought to check it out. We also have some friends that we podcast, we associate with, and our friends over at the Playwell Network, well, we like them too. And, you know, we like them so much that we give them ad spots. So here's a word from one of them.

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For more games that you can order from our website, Phil's Gaming Emporium. And we're back. So tonight, Josh, we're going to be talking about evil within and this is our Spooptober game, Spoopy Time. I hope you didn't spoop your pants, dude.

Don't do it.

Don't do it.

Don't do it.

Did you do it?

There's evil within you. Don't let it out.

Don't spoop your. Don't. I just had this really awful visual of my head. You know, you were talking about Evil within and don't let it out. And I was going to say, don't spoop yourself. And then it was just like all that stuff combined for just this horrific montage in my head.

I don't know what you're talking about. I was talking about evil, so I made that pretty clear.

I'm just saying, as you get older, sometimes your body does things that you're just like, why? Why would you do this to me, body?

This is the spookiest thing that's ever happened to me. All right.

We degenerated into scatological humor off the crack.

I see what you did there.

I didn't do that on purpose. Pun was not intended. I never intend my puns unless I do, which is very rare. Almost never. But it's time. It's time to talk about Evil Within a little bit. And so, like, let's sort of, like, you have some notes here. So let's just sort of talk about. Do we have any baggage with this game? And frankly not. I don't really. Personally, I don't. It was like one of those games where it's like. I mean, we've talked about just horror and how, like, you know, through games like Alan Wake 2, Resident Evil 4, and Dead Space, I. I really came to appreciate the horror survival genre. But, like, Evil within just wasn't, like, ever really on my radar. And then a few years ago, it was like I was listening to someone, and they're like, yeah, it's like. It's like one of the greatest. Or it's.

It's.

It's a really great survival horror game. And it's like. It kind of was like, well, I ought to check this out. Oh, Shinji Mikami, who was associated with the Resident Evil series for a while. I think he did like two and three. Or maybe.

I know he did four.

Did he do four?

Okay, yeah, yeah.

But Shinji Mikami, since the beginning, but.

I know he did four at least.

Evil within is sort of like, that's what he went to go on to. So. Yeah, but I don't have any. I don't have any baggage with it. It wasn't like, this isn't super high profile. It was, but it was like one of those things where it's like, I had heard pretty good things about it, wanted to check it out, picked it up on the sale years ago, and just kind of like, we finally got a chance. So that's like. That's my baggage. Like, that's. I didn't really have a lot of preexisting history with it. It was like I was always kind of curious about it and just never got around to it.

Yeah. Yeah. So you'll have to forgive me, everyone who's listening. My nose. My allergy situation has gotten a little worse. So now I sound even worse, but I feel okay. So hopefully I can still be energetic and have some things to contribute here. So, Shinji Mikami. Some of the things that I'm reading here on Wikipedia that it says he actually directed the first Resident Evil game. He directed the first installment of Dino Crisis, and he did Resident Evil 4. He did God Hand as well. And he founded Platinum Games and directed Vanquish. So he definitely has a storied history of video games that he has made.

Have you ever played God Hand?

I have not. No.

Dude, that game is insane. Yeah.

I've only seen the memes.

It's a cult classic for a reason. It's not what I would really call.

Good.

Yeah, Yeah. I was trying to figure. But it is one of those things that I love that game.

Oh, wow. Okay.

I didn't realize that God Hand, huh?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Like I said, I've seen the memes, and so I've heard. When I've heard that it's really good. Good. I've heard it somewhat in jest of like, oh, yeah, this is amazing. And then not wink. Like, it.

It isn't. But it also is.

Okay.

It's. It's just a game that I loved. Like, it's. It's not really like. Yeah, it's not. God Hand is weird, but, yeah, it checks out. It checks out.

There you go. Well, yeah, that's Shinji Mikami for you. So in terms of baggage for the Evil within, in particular, very similar. I had heard. I had heard lots of different things. I'd actually heard it was kind of a middling game, so I didn't think necessarily too highly of it, except that it was like, hey, yeah, like you said, this is a series that Shinji Mikami made his own studio, Tango gameworks to create. And so I had heard that it was kind of a spiritual successor to Resident Evil 4, especially because Resident Evil 5 goes in a more action heavy direction. So, so that's kind of what I was expecting and frankly, I think that is very apt of a description.

Yeah, yeah, it's. I mean, sort of like, you know, just talking about this in sort of like a spoiler free context, it reminds me of like a lot of the high water marks in horror and survival horror in some ways. Like, it's, it's almost as visceral as Dead Space, but frankly, I don't think it quite earns like, Dead Space. Like the, the sort of, like the, the gratuitous violence in Dead Space feels a little bit earned. Whereas like some of the gore in Evil within just feels kind of like. Yeah, it, it's, it's a choice, frankly. I think. Like, it kind of tries to lean into some, you know, psychological thriller kind of elements, maybe similar to Alan Wake, but again, like the, the story just doesn't have the same, like, gravity, you know, and that's. It's weird because, like, Alan Wake is like a bit absurdist, but it's like it threads that needle almost like perfectly. Whereas I don't feel like. I just don't feel like the story in Evil within is as potent. But yeah, I, you know, and it's kind of like one of those things. It's been a long time since I played Resident Evil 4, but like, I think that's the touch point is like, frankly, I think Resident Evil 4 has like cooler set pieces. But yeah, it's, it's. I mean, just like, I think it's a. It's a really like, if you want a horror game, it's pretty good. It's pretty good. I mean, it's just a. Yeah, yeah.

Well, and it's interesting to think back on other spooktober games that we've done. Resident Evil 4 was actually technically before we even started the podcast. We decided to play that game together around October, if I, if, if memory serves. And that was the first time that I actually played through the game all the way on Wii and had a great time. We've done Dead Space in the past. You know, both those games are very high on our top 100 games of all time. We did Alan Wake. Was that last year? Yeah, I think Alan Wake was last year. No, no, last year was Faith, not Holy Trinity.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Two years ago was Alan Wake.

Wow. So then was Doki. Doki three years ago. Oh my goodness. Has it really been that long? That's crazy. So sorry. So I think back on these other Games that we've played and they all feel pretty unique to me. They all have their own kind of things going on. And I really liked playing the Evil Within. I think it starts off pretty rough. The more that I played it, the more that I. That I liked it. But by the end of it, I. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it enough to. To like, seriously consider. Should I just move on to the second one? Because I actually kind of want to play more of this. Even after, like I said earlier in the episode, even after putting as much time as I did into this one, like, I was still. I still wanted more. Like, yeah, I would be down to, you know, continue this. Come to find out, the second one's a little different in that it's a little more open world feeling the way that it kind of sets stuff up. But anyways, I have not started that game. I don't know if I will. But all that to say is that I do actually, like, I. I ended up liking this game quite a bit more than the first, you know, five hours would have it did. It didn't initially hook me as much as 10 hours in. Then I'm like, okay, yeah, I actually really like this. I like what they're doing here.

Yeah. Yeah. I was just gonna say, I think that's a pretty. I actually experienced something pretty similar where it's like the first, like three or four hours was like, okay, like, you know, and it was like. It was like, I don't know. I don't know. And then I can't remember where the actual turning point was, but there was a point. And now, to be fair, though, I did really. I think one of the things that I will say about Evil within, and I think that this is kind of like a bit of a mixed bag for me, but I think that there was an emphasis on stealth in Evil within that I really like that I actually think is pretty unique. Evil Within. Like, I don't see a lot of other games that kind of rely on stealth to this extent. And so I did like that.

Yeah. So I. I agree. And generally I'm not like the biggest fan of stealth games, but I think one of the things they did with this game that's somewhat unique with. From other stealth games that I've played is they actually made the failure state, like, pretty harsh, that if you don't use stealth or you mess up yourself and someone sees you, like, it's not just kind of the original Metal Gear Solid of like, oh, it's this bar that kind of, you know, goes up kind of slowly or whatever. Maybe I'm thinking of other games. Sorry. But I think that it made it kind of hard. Like you, like, using stealth is a very effective strategy, but if you screw it up, like, oh, they're going to see you, they're going to follow you. They're not just going to forget about you. Like, you've been seen and now you have to use ammo that is very scarce.

Yeah. And the other part of that, though is like, your melee is really pretty weak, almost useless.

Yeah, it's.

Yeah, it's pretty much there to like, maybe like now if you can knock someone down, then you can stomp on them.

Right.

And that's. That can. That. That can be like a way to sort of like terminate your enemy. But yeah, it's. Let's. I don't know. I don't know. Is there anything else, like spoiler free that we sort of want to hit on before we kind of move into spoilers? Because I do think it's. It's really important to talk about, like, the opening sequence for this game, which is arguably was probably the hardest part of the game in. In terms of just like getting. Getting into the game, you know, and. But, you know, before we talk about that in sort of any sort of detail, you know, was there anything else just sort of like spoiler free that we should sort of hit on or.

Yes. And I'd like to kind of just use this as a segue into the intro, is that while I very much enjoyed this game, but, yeah, I guess my conclusion will come later. But I will say that, you know, after our episode on horror and thinking about horror in general, the horror in this game is very superficial.

Yeah.

And so it's not the kind of horror that I like. They're trying to do something and I think in some ways they get to it kind of in hindsight from the game. But it is not a. It's not the hypothetical or not hypothetical, the metaphorical psychological horror of Silent Hill 2. It's not the kind of deeper meaning of what's going on even in something like a Hellblade or something like that. It is. It uses horror. It's weird because in some ways it's effective when it uses horror, but it doesn't have an overarching purpose to it outside of just like, oh, you'll be freaked out in the moment, then continue on in the game.

The horror exists only to mess with you.

Yeah.

To like, creep you out, to weird you out. It doesn't. There's no like thematic, like weight or narrative, like context where it. Yeah, it's just. It's just there to be creepy and weird. It's not part of a greater like meta narrative or anything like that.

Right, right. So it has some mechanic benefit within the game. Like this game couldn't be a pure fantasy game or something like that. But yeah, it just doesn't have a deeper meaning because I think of games like Faith, I think of games like Doki Doki Literature Club, where they have things to say through horror that I can respect much more than this experience. And so at the end of the day, I enjoyed this game, but it's much more of a surface level game. It's much more of an arcadey kind of game. The last thing that I will say, and actually this is what I meant to say with, with it being a segue, is that I do have to heavily caveat any kind of recommendation for this game because it is very gory and grotesque. It's one of the most gory games that I've ever played. And because I don't think it has much of a deeper meaning outside of expressing anger at certain emotions of the characters, which we'll get into later. It's hard to recommend to give a bear, to give a baseline recommendation for it because one, you have to have the stomach for it. But two, like, it's kind of off putting that it is so gory when it doesn't have to be.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I. And I would just echo that. It just like. Well, and that's sort of like what we were talking about where like the visceral nature of Dead Space feels earned, whereas the violence and the gore in Evil within, it just. It's there for shock value. And it doesn't really. It's not additive in a lot of ways. It's just there to like, mess with you.

So, yeah, if. If I'm trying to think of a way to say this without having any spoilers, but it's kind of like a horror movie. I mean, almost like a splatter film. It's a horror movie that, like. Yeah, you know, it's a. It's. There's a psychopath and so he does things that are shocking. You know, he kills people in certain ways just because he's a psychopath. Like, there's nothing much deeper than that, unfortunately.

I think. And I think that's. That is the right corollary where it's like some of the other, like, you know, where Alan Wake. It's horror, but it's a psychological thriller. Kind of like the suspense and just the narrative mystery and sort of. And then you have Dead Space, which just. It's sort of the. The sort of like the study in fear and just isolation and just like. Again, just like, just. I think Dead Space is like just one of the most cohesive. Like the sound design, the gameplay, all of it. It's just like this. This experience that is just. Yeah, I don't know that Dead Space has a lot to say, but, like, it's just more masterful in its execution.

Yeah.

Like.

Yeah. And it makes more sense narratively because that's an alien planet and things are going on. Yeah, yeah, it just. Yeah, I agree. It feels much more earned.

Yeah, it's a sort of. And. But, yeah, like, I would say, like, Evil within is like grindhouse, kind of like splatter film grindhouse, kind of like horror where it's just like. It's kind of gratuitous. It's kind of just glories and kind of being a little gross, a little disgusting and that. Yeah, that is a bit of a caveat, you know, just sort of off the top. It's like, just like. I think this is a game where if you like horror and, you know. And again, yeah, I don't want to, like, just sort of like full on endorse this. Excuse me, but I think if you like horror, it's not a bad one, it's a good one. Like, it's not awesome. The only problem is I do think there's, like, the front couple of hours are a little, like, dodgy, but.

Yeah. Which we could get into now.

Yeah.

After we give a little warning for spoilers.

So, yeah, it's time for spoilers. Or spoilers, however you want to say that, but.

Spoilers.

Spoilers. But. So, like, I don't think the story is really all that important. It kind of like you basically play as Sebastian. What's his last name? I'm gonna say Gutierrez, but I don't. That's not right.

No, it's Castanello's or something like that.

Like Castellanos or something like that.

Yeah, right. Something like that.

But you. You play as this sort of like grizzled cop, Sebastian, or Seb, as he sometimes referred to. And you and a couple of your partner and a trainee are sort of. It opens up with you guys sort of driving to a crime scene and you go to this insane asylum and once you get in there, it's just. It's an absolute. Just there's bodies everywhere. Blood just in some ways is painted like the. Some of the walls are just like painted red with, with blood and other. Yeah. Anyways, it's like. But you get in there and then it quickly like there's basically you get into this and you're sort of like you're doing some examining and next thing you know, like you get knocked out by this weird murder hobo looking dude and you wake up basically hanging upside down and a basement, like butcher room kind of thing.

Yeah. On a meat hook.

Yeah, on a meat hook essentially. Yeah. And this is the part that. This is like one of the parts where it's like it, it was honestly like I, I kind of spent enough time. I, I had to run through the sequence more than a few times and it just kind of like bothered me. But, and, and I think in, in a way it is useful because I think this is a game. Like it's not a great leveling of the or leveraging of this, but I think here is like Shinji Mikami is like trying to let the player know that like, hey, stealth is going to be your friend here.

Like. Yeah. And you're gonna die a lot.

And you're gonna die a lot. Um, but it's basically probably like, I don't know, a half hour sequence maybe that takes a lot longer than a half hour of you basically trying to escape this chainsaw wielding psychopath. And it does also sort of, I think introduce the fact that there's lots of traps. There's like lots of traps everywhere. Like, you know, so, so that part like that, that initial sequence. Josh, how many times do you think you attempted to run through.

Oh man, gosh. I mean, at least 20. Like. Yeah, there were tons of times when all throughout it. And, and also, I don't, I don't know that you highlighted enough that. Yes, there is this insane creature with a, with a chainsaw, you know, a huge butcher character. But when you get yourself off the meat hook, you know, like there are other pieces of meat hanging up in other corpses.

Yeah, by pieces we mean people.

Yeah. But they've been like drained and so there's blood all over the floor. You know, it feels very gross. You walk over and the butcher guy is chopping into another corpse. You have to get the key. Is it on the corpse or is it on a desk? I don't know.

I think it's on a table or something.

But you have to get close to this corpse that's been chopped up. It is extremely just gross and it kind of rubs your nose in it. And then as you're running away from this chainsaw wielding psycho, you fall into a vat of blood.

Yeah, I was going to say there's a blood pit where it's like you fall into this like tunnel and you start going down this basically like slide that is covered with like people meet and what's left of people meat. And then you fall into a giant tub of blood and guts.

Yeah, yeah. And. And I'm like, I don't, you know, I'm not, I'm not squeamish or anything like that for, for games in real life.

Yeah. If I saw a slide covered with people, me and that led into a pool of blood, that, that might be enough to make me want to hurl.

Yeah, yeah, I probably puke. But it just like, it just felt very gratuitous because I don't know what's going on. You know, I just turned on this game. This is not what I'm expecting. I'm not expecting like a game to be so over the top. Like. And again just feeling like it's kind of shoving it into your face. So yeah, it's, it's off putting. I don't want to say offensive but you know, just very well.

It's just. It. Yeah, it's just like. And again it's sort of, this is like, it's just buckets of red paint for no apparent reason kind of like thing.

Yeah.

But after like you know, sort of like you basically sort of like, like, like 20, 30 minutes of the game. The, the initial part of the game, you know, is you basically sneaking around and trying to escape from the psychopath. And you know, and there is sort of a tutorialization like there's like there, there are traps throughout the game that you can disarm and you can eventually like use those traps, like craft, you know, some of your own ammo and stuff like that. But you, you, you work through that sequence and by doing so you escape the hospital and you sort of get picked up by this ambulance driver and you're sort of escaping through town and the whole town is like collapsing in on itself and it's just very. I, I think and, and sort of. We will talk about this as we sort of talk about some of the different story beats too. But it's like there is no explanation for what is going on at all. It's like you like, there's no like why did you wake up on a meat hook? You know, it's like why did, why was this chainsaw wielding psycho Chasing you through. Like, it's like getting out of the psych. The psych hospital. It's like there's an ambulance and the dude runs off and the cityscape is falling apart. Like, like, it's like earthquake level. Sort of like shifts in the geography, right? And as you're driving through the city, trying to escape this, you know, there's like, entire city blocks are just like, shifting around and sort of like falling over and stuff like that. It's. It's just wild. Sinkholes.

Yeah.

Massive sinkholes are popping up and it's just. It's just like. And again, the game doesn't offer, like, any explanation for why this is going on. And so kind of what happens next is you get through the city and the ambulance sort of like, crashes. Right. And that sort of like. And what. I think one of the other things that this game does I really like Josh, is like, I feel like for the most part, the chapters are pretty accessible. Like, you could sit down and play a chapter. There's 15 chapters, and you could probably play through a chapter in an hour or two, tops.

Yeah, except for one of them took me longer than that. But, yeah, whenever we want to talk about that.

But so. And you basically. And, and. And this is kind of what we were talking about though too, is like, the next couple of chapters are actually really kind of like, almost tedious because again, it's still like, onboarding you. And it's like you. You learn about this, like, sort of like, save system thing where it's like you can look into these mirrors and get transported into this. This other, like, place and you can get weird upgrades by acquiring green gel. And there's. There's no explanation for any of this. There's no, like, hey, this is like, kind of like the cohesive sense of this world. It's just like these things just keep popping up and you're like, what is going on? And it's just kind of like. It feels almost supernatural.

Oh, yeah, for sure.

Like, but there's no explanation of who, like the. The weird murder. Murder hobo dude that, like, sort of knocked you out initially is. And like, any of it, it's just weird. And it's. It's. It's pretty disjointed. But a lot of those first couple of chapters, like, you don't really have weapons. You're just primarily, like, just trying to sneak around and slink around. And there's a part of me that really like that, but it was also pretty tough. And.

Yep.

I don't think the game does a great job of even telling you to, like. And, you know, sometimes on the hint screen it says sometimes running away is the best option. There were a number of times, like, especially in that. That. That second chapter where. Or maybe it's the third chapter where you're like, you're crawling through the woods there and there's. You still don't have any weapons really. Like, you might get like, oh, you can burn corpses if you. You knock people down. Like, you can, like, burn them. I think you do have a pistol, but it's like you can't kill enemies with the pistol at this point in time. Like, you can just kind of like, knock them down because, like, people are just turning into weird zombie things, like feral zombie psychos.

Yeah, yeah.

And. But it. It's just a lot of sneaking and kind of, like, tedious and it's sort of like. Yeah, it was. And it really wasn't until you got to that first town, which is, I feel like two or three hours into the game and then like, sort of like navigating through that. That initial town, you know, felt pretty good.

But, yeah, I enjoyed the village level. But I also get what you're saying. Like, I did feel a bit of frustration, like, because it's a bigger kind of area that you're in. Like, you do need to get a lay of the land and you have to do that very slowly. And I died a number of times where it's like, oh, I put 15 minutes into getting this far and killed, you know, sneaking up on these zombies and getting this thing over here, and then I die, you know, or then I, you know, I trigger a trap and it explodes, you know, and so I think the tension is high, which is good. I think that's a good thing. You're always low on life. If you screw up the stealth, well, then the zombie is going to run after you.

And like, oh, there's not much. You have a stamina meter. Like, you can sprint for like, all of a second.

Yeah.

And then he gets winded and it's like. And there is, like, there is like an upgrade system where, like, you can upgrade a lot of those physical abilities or your different weapon capabilities. But again, like, I think part of the frustration is that there's no real explanation offered for any of this. It just kind of like throws you into these different scenarios and you don't understand why you're sort of moving. And to be fair, I think the first three or four chapters tend to be fairly coherent. There is a Progression out of the asylum, through the city, crash into the woods, through the woods to this abandoned little dock and stuff, and then to the town. And then once you get through the town, you move through. It does make a certain amount of sense, but there's no answer to any of the questions as to. To why any of this is going on. It's just like you're kind of, like, thrust into this. Like, you go from the world to, like, all of a sudden, it's like almost existing in sort of like a third world nation kind of thing. Yeah, it does feel very similar to the Resident Evil, like, set pieces, where it's like you're sort of like, you've got Leon, right? Modern world, and he. But he's kind of going into the middle of the country in the middle of nowhere or whatever. And this is like, where I can see, like, the Resident Evil touch points where it's like, okay, you can kind of see, like, Shinji. Shinji Mikami was like, hey, like, kind of like not borrowing from his own material, but it's like, oh, like these, like, you can sort of see, like. Okay. And, but, but yeah, yeah, I think.

He'S referencing it for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think it's kind of. I think it's kind of for the sake of the player. Like, I actually, I appreciated it that you. You're in this village. Like. Yeah, it felt a lot like RE4 to me with that opening village. And so, yeah, no, I, I, I liked it to. What you were saying earlier, too, is that, yeah, you kind of get your feet underneath you traveling to these different places. But then I don't even remember if, you know, Sebastian gets knocked out or something like that, or if he just gets warped around because eventually that's what ends up happening, like, in between chapters, you know, because there's these supernatural stuff happening. He'll. Yeah, he'll get knocked out and wake up and, oh, now he's in a.

You know, in a completely different location.

Yeah, yeah. And he'll, like, fall through the floor, you know, and show up somewhere else. And I'm like, what the heck is even happening? And I'm of two minds. I enjoy story. I enjoy narrative. I want to know what's going on. And I never got that through most of the game. It never felt grounded while I was playing it. On the other hand, it did allow you to go to different areas, and I think they used each of those areas well for what they were trying to do. The specific boss of the level worked really well, in the area where you fight that boss, the different types of scares with the lighting flickering, you know, made more sense. In the area where that was when there's, you know, this weird spider lady who looks like the girl from the ring, you know, goes out. Like, the area in which you fought her, I thought was great. Like, it worked really well. It's just that it felt like a collection of levels. It didn't feel like the game was telling you why you were in these different areas.

Yeah, I. I think, like, the. The thing is, like, that's. That's the hard part is because there wasn't like, a bit of any sort of narrative hook. It's just like there. There does seem like a progression, like I said, towards the beginning, like those first, like, four, five, six chapters, because you're progressing through the village and then you're going to the church and then, you know, to the mansion or, like, through the church to the mansion or whatever. And then it just takes, like a hard, like, right or left turn into just like. You just start showing up into places. And it doesn't offer any sort of, like, inform. Like, it doesn't offer anything. It does sort of feel like, you know, because, you know, part of it is you're chasing after Leslie. You know, the. The one insane asylum is like. Yeah, what's the word? I'm like, patient that you're sort of, like, trying to save, but it doesn't offer, like, what is going on? Where are you? It just kind of like, you just keep grinding through this. And there is like, you know, you talk to that doctor or whatever, but it's never like, hey, we're in the sort of like, the town outside of the city that the asylum was in or anything. There's no sort of offer of any of that. And it just feels like. Kind of like it is a little disjointed, you know, and then it's like you said, when it. When it does sort of, like lean into, like, the more supernatural sort of things where, like, that does feel like a bit of a harder turn, you know, where it's like. Because it doesn't. It doesn't really ramp up into it. It's all like, zombie. It's like, fairly standard zombie stuff. And then you do get some of, like, the. Like when you get to the church, that sequence where you fight the two giant dudes in that little, like, maze catacomb thing. Yeah, that was. I. I think this game has some great sequences. You know, it's like you talk about the. The Fights with Laura, those are all pretty good.

That.

That fight with that weird mutant dog thing, that was pretty awesome. I mean, but it just. Yeah.

Yeah. I think the game does pretty well when it comes to bosses. Yeah. And encounters. It's pretty memorable. So. Yeah. I mean, overall, that's the thing is, like, I think mechanically, this game is very solid and I enjoyed actually playing it. It just also. There's just so many things. Well, not so many things. It's just the things that I like in video game video, there's no narrative cohesion. Right, right. Yeah, exactly.

Well, at least while you're playing the game.

Right, right. And look, you know, the game is called the Evil Within. It's pretty obvious that, like, okay, this probably isn't real what's happening to me right now. You know, it's called the Evil Within. There's something Within. But I don't know if my character is crazy, you know, was he. Was he actually a member of this insane asylum in the beginning of the game? And you're just playing through, like, none of this is actually real. Like, I didn't know what was real and what wasn't. Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's just awkward that you can't.

Tell the general story. And that's the thing is, like, there's, like, some really great set pieces. There's that, like, the Laura fights with the spider lady or whatever. And so many of these things, like, can just kill, like, Laura. Like, the game doesn't tell you when, but it's like, you should run from her. Like, you will not have, like, you will not have enough ammo. You will not be able to kill her. And you'll come across her several times and it's like, usually there's like, some sequences and stuff like that. And again, it's like this game has some really cool sequences, some really cool moments, but I think, like, so just, like, full. Just. I don't know, like, just spoiling the story is that you go to this insane asylum. And here's like, the one point of. There's like a disconnect here for me, Josh, and maybe we can talk about this, but when you went to the insane asylum at the beginning of the game, you get knocked out by this character, Ruvik. And as the game progresses, what you find out is that Ruvik was the victim of a really horrific accident where his sister was killed. And he is, like one of these. Like, he's a bit of a mad scientist. He's brilliant. And he basically starts. He basically finds a way to manipulate human consciousness and kind of throw people into this simulation. And part of it is like he. Basically what happened is that when you went in the insane asylum, he got you and he put you in his machine. And so, like, you're sort of living and he's a sadist and he puts people in these situations where they have to navigate these traps and just sort of escape all these, like, really horrific events against like these weird zombie mutant things. And it just turns out it's all like. Just because he's a really damaged individual and he's got this like. He's. His brain got carved out of his head and locked into the machine as sort of like the engine for the machine. And so what he's trying to do is like. And why Leslie is so important is that he's basically trying to force his conscience into Leslie's body to escape the hell world that he's sort of been propping up with his simulation as a brain in a jar. And.

Yep, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's. That's the general gist of it. He did have issues. He was a sadistic child he liked to, you know, experiment on.

But he loved Laura. He loved his sister.

And it's implied that it was like, incestuous as well. Not. Not that anything happened, but that he had feelings for his sister, but she actually cared for him, but then she dies in this accident. So he was already a damaged individual in a number of ways. And the reason that he created this machine was so that he could basically create his own world and then. And bring her back, enter into it. Right. So he could be back with his sister. That was the whole point. Then there's this other scientist who, like, took him under his wing. Who is the guy that you meet in the.

And then exploited him.

Yes, right.

The Dr. Jimenez or whatever.

That's his name. Huh. And so they're experimenting how you can make this machine that creates this other world in your head and then connect it. You. If you actually connect more brains up to it as well, more people, more brains, it. It basically like makes the. Makes it more real, makes it becomes more powerful, Powers it. Yeah, yeah. But it has issues with other people, so they're. Yeah, all that stuff. So when it comes down to it, yeah, you are. You are pulled into this consciousness, this world that is created by that. This guy who's actually a brain in a jar. Because. Because the. There's a company that wanted this machine and decided that he was too dangerous to be kept alive, but they needed his brain in order to Power the machine. So it's all kind of taking place in his head. And all of the places that you go to are either part of his memories or kind of distorted memories of other people that have been pulled into this machine as well, that they've kidnapped and hooked in.

It's all sort of a nightmare scape a la I had the. I actually just Googled this, but did you ever watch the movie the Cell with Jennifer Lopez? Josh? Do you know what I'm talking about?

It rings a bell, but maybe I'm thinking of the jacket, because I don't remember Jennifer Lopez.

One of these things where she somehow. It's like this weird, like, psycho thing where she. They get into other people's heads through some device and she sort of hunts down or she does something, like. Something to sort of like, help capture or maybe. Maybe even like rehabilitate, like serial killers or whatever. I don't know. It's weird, but there are lots of, like, really kind of grotesque visuals and especially towards the end of the game. And I actually. Some of those visuals reminded me of the Cell, but.

Okay, okay.

But it's also been like 15, 20 years since I saw that movie. Just for some reason, though, like when I was playing it, but it just kind of reminded me of that.

Yeah.

Yeah, interesting. But it's a similar premise, too. Like, you're sort of in someone else's brain, but Ruvik has all the power. Like, he's the only. He's the only brain that's hooked up this machine that can actually, like, consciously, like, manipulate things. So he's, like, way more powerful.

Here's.

So here's kind of the disconnect. I wanted to level at you, though. When the game opens up and you go into the hospital, right. And you kind of look over to the Ruvik appears behind you right at the beginning.

Right.

And knocks you out.

How? Yeah, that's a good question. I know it does talk about at one point that they have modified the machine to be able to use it wirelessly, but I don't think that happens until you're rushing out of there when the characters start having headaches. Like Joseph, he has a headache as you're driving away. I thought that was the moment when they turned on that wireless thing. Because you're right. Yeah. I mean, the Ruvik is a brain in a jar, so I don't know how he manifested himself when it was in the real world in order to capture Sebastian.

Yeah, I'm not exactly sure. It's weird. And there's lots of like, holes in the story that just, like, plot holes that just. It's like this doesn't. There's. Again, it's. It doesn't have a lot of, like, narrative cohesion.

Right, right. Which I, frankly, I disliked about the game. I. I think it does kind of come together, but, yeah, it is pretty messy. I know I came off very harsh on something like Death Stranding for similar reasons, but I would say Death Stranding, the narrative is. It's a much more narrative focused game than this one is. And so I'm not as harsh on this game, although I think it's like, I think it's a negative point for the game. It doesn't put me off to the game that it.

And I would say, though. I would even say, though, that I think, like, Death Stranding's narrative is more coherent even. You know what I'm saying? Like, even though, like, you struggled with it, like, it just doesn't feel like. It just feels like the, like the, the narrative hooks are just there to sort of like, kind of link these different scenarios together.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I, Yeah, I do agree with you. I think. I think with Death Stranding, I think it's almost like it was too thought out to where the areas where there were gaps, they. They just kind of. They shouted out at me or, you know, the kind of. The conflicting ideas and conflicting theories going on were. Because it felt like was so much put into that story, whereas this one felt like the story was more loose. Well, here's the. Here's the deal is that after finishing the game and taking in all of the story, it's like, okay, I do see what they were trying to do, but they don't ever. At least they didn't. It didn't feel to me as if I was ever let on to what was going on while I was actually playing the game.

Yeah.

There's a moment, kind of the bigger reveals happen as you're walking around this old house and you're doing some experiments. Like, the game forces you to kind of delve into brains and stuff like that, and you learn the history of Ruvik and stuff like that. That's where the most reveals came. But it still never laid out to me as I was playing. Maybe I'm just dumb. What exactly was going on in terms of, like, okay, but how is he controlling this? How. How are these things controlling it? It was all so fragmented that it never felt like it came together until after I finished the game. And then it's like, okay, what just happened? And I watched some YouTube videos and they were like, okay, this is what happened. Oh, okay.

It's. It's all just a simulation.

Well, yeah. I mean, most of it is the. The actual, like, gore in the opening, like, walking into the area. Was there, like, lots of people died?

Lots of people died. It's just. It's. It's. Like I said, it's. It's one of those things where I think, like, the biggest weakness. I do think, though, like, it's. It's, you know, in sort of looking back at it. It's like the strength is in, like, sort of the arcade gameplay, especially once you start getting, like, a bit more of a weapons kit. Yeah. You know, and again, like, just even the fact that, like, stealth is a fairly reliable option most of the time. Yeah, it was. It was a. The game. Yeah. I think, like, that is where it does remind me of Resident Evil 4 a little bit. Like, Resident Evil 4 really kind of leans into like, the kitschy, campy, kind of like almost like action movie kind of like horror ish thing. Whereas this, like, that is the one thing where it's like this sort of. I don't know. I don't want to say it takes itself too seriously. Like, where, like, I think, like, the. The gameplay is probably comparable. It doesn't like, Resident Evil is like, kind of like. There's almost always like a wink and a nod with Resident Evil, right?

Yeah.

Where it's like. And that. That's kind of like the thing that keeps you going is like. And I. I feel like some of the scenes, like, sequences are really good. In Evil Within, I just don't think it has, like. Again, it just comes back to that. Again, the term I keep using is narrative cohesion. It's like there are some really cool sequences, really cool boss fights, really cool enemy types and enemy encounters, but it just. There's no glue holding any of it together. And then for you to understand the game, you get to the end and it's sort of like it says, well, like you were stuck in. You were sucked into stem, which is this. Again, it's this sort of. This simulation kind of thing that, like, Ruvik's brain was powering and controlling. Yeah. And you do find out bits and pieces, but it's like it never just sort of like. Like. Yeah. Really gives you much of a heads up as to what is actually going on until you're at the very end where it's just like. It's all in your head, which is like, almost sort of like too like, it's kind of disappointing because it does feel much like it was all a dream, you know?

Yeah, to a certain extent. Yeah, there is that. A bunch of people still died because they were having the same hallucinations. And so you can die in your hallucination. But there are certainly, you know, some questions that are left unanswered. Some where the next game. Game, I've heard, goes into it. Stuff with Sebastian and his family that kind of gets trickled out throughout the course of the game. They delve into that in the next game. But even like, okay, the green gel and the upgrades and that kind of asylum and what that is that you wake up in, I still don't get any of that. Like, I don't know how that fits into anything. The looking in the mirrors and traveling to a different place. I don't know where that fits in well.

And it's like. Because there's always those badges you find, and you sort of, like, get to peel back some of Seb's story, but it doesn't even. Like, it just sort of even there. It implies his connection with the thing. It implies that his wife. And he's kind of a tragic figure. Guys, like, he's like. He was a police detective and he met. Met his wife through the force. They got married, they had a kid. Apparently their house burns down, right? And then his wife, sort of like, he retreats into the bottle to, like, sort of like, lick his wounds. Right? And his wife just sort of. She starts up this investigation where she's. She basically has come across information where it was a setup, like something. Something happened, but it never really. It even explains like that. But, like, it's kind of inferred that somehow, like, they're tied to this stuff and that, like, maybe, you know, Rubik is somehow responsible for, like, his little girl's death or something. But it's weird. Again, it's just like they never come out and, like, make these strong connections. And so it's just like kind of like lots of holes and what ifs and, like, I'm not sure that this really makes sense kind of stuff. Stuff.

Right, Right. Which is where the second game comes in. It actually. That's what the second game is about. Ruvik actually doesn't even show up in the second game is what I've seen. Even though the end of this game implies that he got out, now he uses Leslie's body or that he possibly.

Could have gotten out.

Well, Leslie walks very differently than he does the rest of the game. So it's I mean, it's. It's pretty. It's very heavily implied that Ruvik has taken over Leslie's body, especially because he, like, turned him to mush at the.

End and has gained powers because he just disappears. Yeah, he just, like, vanishes.

Yeah. So anyways, so that's. I mean, I think, frankly, that's enough of the story. The overall story, I think. Yeah, we've kind of. I don't have anything more to say about it other than what we've already said that. Yeah, it feels messy and the story.

Isn'T why you would play this game anyways, so.

Right, right. Yeah. Which is unfortunate because I do like it. Yeah. It is funny to compare it to Resident Evil, where it's like, yeah, it's more playful, but somehow even that, like, you are more connected. Even if it is, like, even if it doesn't take it or self seriously, at least it gives you something to kind of hold on to.

I think this just really does underscore, you know, and I know I cut you off there, but I think this really does. This game does really sort of, like, underline the necessity, again, of, like, narrative, cohesive narrative hooks.

Yeah.

Like, one of the things is, like, is Resident Evil kind of, like, stupid? And it's kind of nonsensical. Yeah, sure. But it has, like, it has. It goes from point A to B to C to D to E to F. There's a progression and it makes sense and there's like a coherent, cohesive world that exists in this thing. Whereas, like, the evil within and it. Some of that is. The problem is, like, because of what you're experiencing is, like, it is this weird, like, supernatural. Like, it's all taking place in a box in your mind kind of thing. Like. Yeah, but it's like. It's just. It's hard to keep up with what's going on. And that. That does, I think, give a little bit of a problem. Even though the sequences can be really fun and really kind of cool. Yeah, yeah.

Because I did. I did enjoy playing this game quite a bit. Like I said, I'm even looking into possibly playing the second one. I don't know if that's actually going to happen, but I'm glad that you.

Said that because I was kind of thinking the same thing. It's like, I like this enough that I kind of want to see what happens in the next one.

Yeah. Like, well, honestly, for me, yeah, it's more like I enjoyed playing it so much that I'm down to play more of these set pieces, like, it's good. I'm not so much invested in the story. Although now that I've heard what the story of the second one is about, it's like, oh, okay, that could be kind of cool. Excited about that. And you know what, you bring up a good point about kind of the way that the narrative hooks help us in playing video games that I hadn't thought about when I was prepping for this episode. And I think this could kind of be, you know, I try to think up something that's a little bit more, you know, a little bit deeper, a little bit more about the video games that we talk about. I don't want to just talk about, you know, kind of surface level things. And I think what you're, what you're hitting on is our, our need for a purpose. I see this a lot in JRPGs like that are very story focused games. Like, we inherently have an assumption that there is a purpose to what our characters are doing, that it's leading us towards an end. And again, particularly in JRPGs that is very narrative focused, the story and the motivations of the characters and things like that. And so for a game like the evil within, where that is taken away, I think it highlights our desire to have a purpose and a telos for the things that we're doing. That's more than just a set piece or, you know, a cool battle or more than just the mechanics overall. There are, you know, there are some philosophers that have posited that, you know, we as humans, we try and see purpose. We try and connect dots that aren't there. We have a longing. We recognize that we have a longing for purpose, but that ultimately, you know, some people would say that, that there is no purpose in the universe, right? And so we create our own purpose and we, we kind of put it over. That's existentialism. You know, we create our own purpose as opposed to there being a purpose. And, and it is just the way that our brains have evolved that we want to see purpose where there is none. And I think I would interpret that different, differently. I think that God has created the universe and created us with purpose in mind. And so our longing for that actually points towards the fact that we were created for a purpose. And that is what we are searching for. And that's what leads us to one of the things that can lead us to God. It's because he has endowed us with purpose and meaning and a telos and an end that can only be fulfilled in Him. Him and, yeah, I. I just feel that when I play this game also is that I wanted a purpose for the reason that I was doing these things, and I didn't really get it. I guess that's really what I'm going with this. But I think it does kind of touch on just this. This sense that we all have as humans, whether it's with a video game or whether it's with other things. Yeah, sometimes. Sometimes recreation is just an end in itself. Sometimes, you know, putting a puzzle piece together or playing solitaire is just to get to the end. That's fine. But when it comes to even a story being told, you want to. You want to feel as though it's driving towards something. And especially when the ending comes about and it's like, oh, it was all in your head anyway. It's kind of unfulfilling.

Yeah, no, it. Yeah. Yeah. And again, it's. I. You know, I do think that that's really insightful. And it's like. And I think, too, just even the fact that, like. Yeah. When it's not there, how. Just kind of, like, it is kind of disappointing like that. Yeah, it's. It's just an interesting, like, sort of, I guess, touch point where it's like. Like. Yeah.

That.

That need to have, like, a goal or an orientation or just even the fact that, like, you. Your goal is sort of. Sort of so shrouded from you.

Yeah, like, that's a good point. Yeah.

That you, like, Seb's motivation is never, like, sort of clear or maybe. So maybe. Maybe this is like, just part of, like, Shinji Mikami's, like, brilliant design, where you're just, literally, you're in Sebastian shoes, and so you're just as confused as he is, I guess maybe the entire time. I don't know if that's intentional. I. You know, maybe. Maybe I would. I would have to look it up. But it's just like. And I think that that's the thing is, like, this is a game that I would say, like, for. For people who enjoy horror games who aren't super squeamish. Yeah. Like, this is definitely worth checking. It's like a very heavily caveated. Should play. I think people should play this. I think it's fun. I think it's good. I think it's got some really great sequences. I think mechanically it's pretty interesting and sound. But it's also like, this is definitely not for everybody.

Yeah, yeah. No, I agree. I think we land in a very similar place, and I think what you Said there actually is very good. That. That it's not even that there's necessarily a lack of purpose. I would say you're not necessarily in Sebastian's shoes because you're learning about his past, whereas he already knows all this stuff.

Yeah.

So you're even more lost than he is. But it's not even just that it doesn't have a purpose. It's actually that you don't know what reality is. So you don't know if what you're doing is really real, if it will affect anything, if there is purpose in it. It's not even just saying, oh, no, it doesn't matter. Go to the next level. But okay, if you. If you even knew that. No, there might be something here, but you don't know what it is. I don't know if dying actually affects anything. So it feels very much like you're kind of suspended in midair.

Yeah.

But in terms of. Yeah, a recommendation, I. Yeah, I think we're in kind of very similar territory. I give it a mild recommendation simply because I feel like I have to caveat it a lot. But I really enjoyed playing the game. I thought it was a really fun game and I think the mechanics, personally, I thought it was on par with Resident Evil 4. I liked all the different options that it gave you. I liked how much more survival heavy this game was, that even though I had my favorite weapons, often when you'd have to fight a lot of enemies, you'd be going from weapon and using all the ammo from one weapon, so switching to another weapon and then using all the ammo from that weapon and then switching to another weapon and using. Using all the ammo, like, expending all of your ammo was a very common thing in this game. So it never felt like you had enough. It felt like you were kind of scrounging to survive, which I enjoyed quite a bit.

Yeah. And again, I think. Yeah, I was just going to say, I think that emphasis again on stealth. That is really was really pretty. I was pretty tickled by that. I have to just sort of like. Yeah, the stakes feel very real. Even. Even after I turned the difficulty down, there were more than a few times because I was playing on, like, the normal, like Survivor or whatever. And then I just dropped it down to casual. And even on casual, there were many, many times where I was like, oh, I don't have ammo for this. Awesome.

Wow.

This is going to suck.

Yeah.

So.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah. And then when it comes to the horror elements, we've already talked about this, but I do think that comes into play with the recommendation of the game is that because we've just spoken about horror as a genre, as our little genre study, I have to say that the horror elements in this game, they fell flat for me because I do get what they were trying to do. But the horror that's in this game really ends up being a metaphor for anger and grief and rage by this character who's really deranged, you know, who's emotionally scarred and then who's taken advantage of by this CD corporation, you know. So unfortunately I don't feel like there's much of like a takeaway from the story. Like, okay, a bunch of horrible things happened to a sadistic person and so that's why you have, you know, a chainsaw wielding sadist running after you. Yeah, okay, that to me, that's, that's kind of paper thin. There's nothing for me to learn from that. Like what? Don't torture sadists? You know, like, it doesn't. Okay, like, like even be a decent human being is kind of a better message than that. It's, it's just, it's just like, it just drops you into this horrible situation and get out of the horrible situation and okay, end of the game.

Yeah, I think that's the thing is it doesn't have much to say outside of like, just like, hey, here's a game that's going to kind of like weird you out and creep you out and.

Right. It's like, okay, yeah, which it does. And it does effectively. It just, it's nothing more than that.

Yeah, but I think, you know, frankly, Josh, I'm kind of like, I don't know that I have that much more to say. I like the game. I'm glad we played it. I'm glad to kind of like finally get off the list. List. I do kind of want to check out Evil within two at some point in time. And I think like for fans of horror and survival horror, it's a good one. Like if you're looking for something that's like, got some really interesting sequences, got some, some pretty good design, like, yeah, this is it, this is. But I don't, I don't think this, like this. I don't think it cracks our top 100.

Okay. Okay.

I don't think it.

Yeah, yeah. It's hard, it's hard for me to say that just because I enjoyed it. So there's that consideration. But does it like do anything to push the medium forward? No, no.

In general, and frankly, I think you're going to be better served with the three examples of horror that we mentioned, you know, sort of earlier on in the show. I think Dead Space gives you, I think, a better sort of like gameplay visceral, sort of like it utilizes all that stuff a lot better, I think, you know, as far as like the control and the. Just the goriness and like, it just does a better job of justifying that and sort of existing in that and sort of. And again, like, I keep using this word, like cohesive kind of way. Yep, yep. Alan Wake, I think is just gonna do like, does a much better job with the sort of like the playing with the fourth wall kind of like the story beats and the draw, the drama and the sort of like the psychological tension in Alan Wake is significantly like, it's executed on a far higher level level. And then just even, I think as far as just like coherent package, like, you know, even looking as like Resident Evil 4, I think just offers like a better from like point A to, you know, from beginning to end, like a more coherent experience and story that I think is just, you know, you're better off playing that. It's like, I. I like Evil Within. I just think there's also like some pretty major whiffs, you know, that we've. We've talked about that would kind of, frankly, I think would keep it off the top 100. So.

Yeah, yeah, no, I'm very content with that as well. As much as I did enjoy it. And the moment to moment stuff for me was on par or better than Resident Evil 4. Yeah, yeah. I do think they're. Yeah, like you said, Resident Evil 4 is much more cohesive. It gives you that purpose, that drive to move forward. It also.

You got to rescue the President's daughter.

Exactly, yeah. Protect her. Yeah, all that stuff. Leon, he's a good man.

But I think this is probably a pretty good place for us to sort of wind down a little bit. But I guess before we sort of just sort of close the book on Evil within, was there anything that you just wanted to like, Any parting shots that you just kind of want to like, throw out there?

I can't. I can't think of anything outside of what we've already said. I enjoyed it quite a bit and mild recommendation. Just make sure you like. If you have a weak stomach to gore, then I would not recommend it.

Yeah, yeah.

Luckily, outside of the one thing that I said that there's some weird, incestuous vibes in the game, there's no. There's no sexual content that I remember at all. It was all just very gory. It's rated M because of how violent and gory blood and guts you're gonna see.

Blood and guts.

Yeah, yeah. Your face is gonna get smashed in and cut off and ripped open and. Yeah, it's gross.

Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is at that. It is at that. I think I did have a little something that I wanted to toss out there and I just. My brain skipped a beat because it's very late and I'm very tired.

It's wrapped in razor wire.

It's wrapped in razor wire. And I've got the weird psychic scream just going on and it's really messing with me. But. But I think, you know, like I said, I do recommend the game. I just think, like, I don't know that this would be one where I'd be like, hey, start here. I'd actually say, like, hey, go play Resident Evil 4. Go play dead Space. Go play Alan Wake. Yeah, go play. I mean, heck, go play Sen you a saga, you know. Yeah. Or Doki Doki Lizard Club or. Or Faith. I think all of those are going to have, like, a little more substance.

You know what they say, you gotta have faith.

Yeah. Actually, you don't gotta have that. The game is horrific. Literally, this scared the crap out of me. I think that was maybe that might be the scariest game we've ever played, hands down. But. But I think, you know, it's just time to roll into the closing forms here. So.

Yeah, so we got some shout outs.

We got some shout outs to sort of hit. So why don't you kick us off, tee us up here. Who's like, who's your shout out? On our way out the door.

Okay. So I wanted to shout out DPT basement in our. In our Discord, Dorian. Because I just find it really cool that even though this is a type of game that you and I don't typically play, he was in our Discord asking if anyone wanted to join in for Black Ops 6, you know, and someone else responded to him. And I just thought that was super cool because, like, that's not something that I would join in personally. I. I'm just not into modern shooters very much. But I thought it was cool that, like, our community is getting together and play together. Like, so way to go, Dorian. Thank you for not, you know, just like, oh, I don't think they'll like this kind of a thing. Like, no, just throwing it out there.

And make it seeing who bites? Yeah, that's good stuff. That's pretty cool. I like that. And Dorian's just a stand up dude. I mean listen, our Discord is like one of the coolest spots on the Internet. But for me it's going to be acostia for sharing that video from. For the gospel this week. I was so. Yeah, I, I'm going to use the word tickled but I feel like that's a. But I was so pleased, like just. It was such a delight to listen to that conversation. So I just really appreciated that. And it was like, so there you go. You get a na boy.

Nice.

Nice. Don't let it go to your head.

Heads or it'll cost you. Sorry.

Then I'll have to wrap it in razor wire and pull your brains out and put it in a jar.

Jeez.

There you go. But Josh, we have really like one major sort of like thing to hit before we, we wrap it up here.

We do have a form. Yeah, there's a question. It goes something like this. What is your question? What is your question? That's what we're asking. What questions do you have for us? And today's question comes from our buddy in Discord, Jesse Knopp, who asks was Luther's severe grief over his personal assistance that so much so that he supposedly self punished himself. Was it righteous or does it discredit the mercies of God?

And so the point is to answer this kind of quickly and I don't want to spend too much time. No, I don't think he was diminishing or despising the mercies of God. I think self flagellation is wicked and he shouldn't have done that if he did do that. But I think he needs to. Like I think Luther demonstrates something that we would all be wiser and I think more gracious if we is like he took his sin seriously and he understand that that was a, an affront to a cosmic God. And for a man who had such a high opinion of grace, I mean like a lot of Luther's work is basically making the statement that like solea gratia sola gratia sola fide. Like those come from Luther. Like he said, it's by faith alone, through grace alone. That's it. Like that's kind of where it came from. And that was like the, the like. And so it's by trusting and believing. I don't, I don't think it was a waste. I don't think he was despising the mercy of God in that I think he just took his sin very seriously and I think we would all be, we would all be better and happier and healthier, healthier if we took our sin that seriously.

That's good. That's good. That. Yeah. So I was actually going to go a different direction with this, but I do like that a lot and I don't want to. I think it's.

You can reign on my parade. It's okay.

No, no, that's the thing is like, I don't, I don't disagree with you at all. I think that's a very good point. I think I just like to skip over it first. You know, my own heart doesn't want to dwell on that. But, but I agree. I think like you said, that the depth of the depravity, when you recognize what it means to sin, the cosmic treason against your creator, it's like the voice of the serpent in the garden. You can become your own God. That's what you're saying every time you sin against what God has said. When you recognize the depth of your sin, you recognize the immensity of God's grace and his mercy towards us. Yeah, yeah, I think that is, that is a great point. What struck me actually where I was going to go with this was actually a conversation that we had in the discord a little bit. Someone had asked about King David and how, how Scripture says that he was, you know, righteous before God, that he was a man after God's own heart. And I was reading earlier today about his death and about some of the stuff that even God had said about him after he died. I believe he was speaking to Solomon when he said that David followed after God in all that he did with all of his heart, except in the way of Uriah the Hittite. And so it's kind of mind blowing to me that that's the way that God saw David. You know, in a way that sometimes we can focus on our sin too much or if we just focus on the sinfulness of our sin, then, yeah, like you were talking about self flagellation. Something like that is wicked because Christ has already taken that on himself. But if we dwell on the sinfulness of our sin in order to see the grace of God. God, you know, that if that propels us forward to see how merciful our God is, how loving he is, how he still invites us in to his family and adopts us as his own, then I think it's beneficial. But to the extent that you don't want to acknowledge that and you simply want to wallow in your sin. That's when it. I think that's. That's. That's the point at which it discredits the mercy of God, of what he has already done is when you feel that you need to do something to atone for your sin, because that is saying that what Jesus has done was not enough. And I understand why you would feel that way when you see the immensity of your sin. But that's not. Not according to scripture. Jesus on the cross said that it is finished, his mission was accomplished, and he's paid for the sins of his own. So I would just say that there's a line there that it can be crossing over into that. Did Luther do that?

Yeah.

No, I don't think he did. Although, yeah, if it's self flagellation or whatever it was. I'm not sure specifically what Jesse is referring to, but that's not right. I would never encourage someone to do that. But to dwell on how sinful your sin is can be beneficial so long as it sends you into the arms of Christ. So. Good question. There were a number of questions, some goofier than others, but I thought that was a fun one to discuss before we head out for the evening. It.

Yeah, that's a. That's a good one. You know, especially since, like, evil within didn't really offer us anything substantial. Maybe it's good to sort of end, sort of wrap things up with a little bit of. A little bit of weight, a little bit of substance, a little bit of context, but I am fading and. Yeah, so I think. I think this is a good place to sort of just really land a plane. Josh, if they want to get ahold of us, where can they. How can they do that? That.

Yeah, there's a bunch of different ways, all our social media stuff all over the Internet, but we have a link tree, linktree.com the backlog breakdown, where you can get all those links. Come join us in the discord. Come, you know, like our Facebook or whatever, all those different things. Come say hi. We'd love to hear from you if you think that the evil within is more cohesive than we gave it credit for. We'd love to hear why you think that or whether we should play the second game. You know, that's something fun too. So we'd love to hear from you. Check us out leaguetree.com the backlog breakdown.

Well, like I said, I'm starting to fade, so I think this is just a good place to say, you know, it's time to go. So until next time. Josh, we've done the thing. What should they do?

Guys? Keep beating down your backlogs and we'll keep breaking down the benefits.