bite sized: breaking down behind the breakdown

Well, hello there and welcome to another episode of the Backlog Breakdown podcast. And this is a special episode because I am here giving you some bite sized thoughts, as it were. Which is. Which is pretty normal, actually, for this podcast. Who am I? I am Wesley Ray, the Henshin dad himself. Yes, that is the nickname that was bestowed upon me by Nate and Josh, and I think even Paul was involved in that one. I don't even know how many years ago, honestly, but it is pretty cool. Kind of like my initial nickname was West Coast West. I'm pretty sure Nate called me that on the first episode that I was on. But it's been, it's been a little bit since I've listened to the episodes, although probably not as long as some people. But anyway, I am here today to go over a little beefy boy that probably was dumped into your feed at some point. I don't know, I'm just kind of winging this as I go. But there was a big, important episode 200 celebration that was put out not too long ago. Focusing on basically, it was basically a glorified clip show with some, like, AI slot put over it. And I put that together. That was me. I did that thing. And it was, it was quite the undertaking. And I've been kind of thought dumping a little bit to Nate and Josh about my thought process for the last six months as I've been working on this. Yeah, I've been like, really thinking about this project from its infancy, like six months ago. And I think I was like, hey, you guys got any plans for episode 200? And they're like, we barely have plans for the episode next week. And I'm like, I think I know what to do. I got this. I got this. So I just wanted to go over and I wanted to call this episode Breaking down behind the Breakdown, because behind the Breakdown was what I called the little special. And I'm breaking it down. I'm giving you a little bit of behind the scenes information about what my thought process was. So this would be a pretty short episode because I don't have much of a thought process. But why did I do this? Well, honestly, I thought, hey, episode 200 is coming up. And that's something that hasn't been accomplished by a lot of podcasts these days. You know, a lot of people, they can make it to 10 episodes, maybe 25, maybe 50. But going all the way to 200 episodes, that's quite the. I don't know, that's quite the accomplishment, honestly. And, you know, for me, I know I made 100 episodes, about a little bit more than 100 episodes on the Henshin dad podcast, which when I ran that and it's defunct now, don't go listening to it. But I made a hundred episodes, but they were like you know, 10 to 20 minutes. Like there are a few longer episodes here and there. But like, you know, my episodes were basically the size of an average bite size. But Nate and Josh, let me tell you, those guys have been at it for quite a while. They have like, I remember rumblings of this happening back in like 2016, 2017, when we were all part of the Reform Gamers Network and everything. That was an offshoot of the Reform Pub. And you know, Facebook was a wild place back then, let me tell you. So I remember getting in on the ground floor of like the reformed gamers Facebook group, like right when it started, it was like, I think still like double digit member like roles by that time. And then it spun off into its own big thing, became a podcast. And then from there I got to know Nate and Josh quite a bit through the podcast and interacting with them on the Facebook group. And then we went ahead and did the, what was it, the book club for a while and then that spun off into like backlogs and finances, which I think Charles was the one who put that together. I can't remember actually who put that together. Maybe it was David. I don't remember. There's a lot of names here, a lot of proper nouns that I don't remember because I'm getting old and I'm back doing my master's degree as an old person, so that doesn't help. But anyway, this whole history, which they've talked about before, you know, throughout their entire course of their history, it's big. They started their podcast and they're making it to 200 proper episodes now, but that doesn't even count all of the bite sized episodes that they did before that. And the fact that they have an entirely separate feed need for the bro hangs, which you should totally be a part of because honestly, it's not that much money. You should just go ahead and get the extra like hour to hour and a half, like piece of content every couple weeks. Why not? Why not? It's super fun and sometimes they're a bit unhinged, which is kind of like 90 of the time. But that's okay. I can fund them a little bit because I probably have listened to their voice more than anybody else on the planet at this point. Because getting back to the whole point of this episode, it's. Why did I decide to do this? I wanted to celebrate 200 episodes. And I remember that there was a podcast that I listened to. Started way back in 2005 when they finally reached their hundredth episode milestone. They did a clip show. And what they did was that they actually took their favorite bits from every single episode they had done thus far. And I thought, oh, that would be pretty cool. But then I looked at the episode list that they had and I was just like, do I do bite size? Do I do bro hangs? Do I just do, like, topic stuff? Do I do game stuff? Like, in depth? There's in depth reviews and the book club stuff. And I'm just like, oh, boy, this is a lot. You know, that was my original idea. I was just gonna do a clip show that had little bits of every single episode. Let me tell you, that did not work out. That did not work out at all. Because I went back and started from episode zero, which is their Taco Bell special. And if you haven't heard the Taco Bell special, well, I included a clip of it in case you hadn't. It's called the most important episode you'll ever hear. Personally, I think that's a bit hyperbolic, but what can I say? They had big dreams back then. So I started from episode zero and kept gradually listening to every episode since then. But then when you got to episode five, I believe the first episode on emulation hit a bit of a snag, honestly, because there was no episode there. Like, you can't actually download episode five of the Backlog Breakdown podcast. I don't know if you know this, but you can't do it. It's actually not there anymore. Like, I have looked in every way, shape and form that I could possibly figure out. Like, I've. I've searched up, like, Russian Amazon, like music, and I cannot find this episode to save my life. So you can't actually get it. And because, you know, they didn't realize they were going to hit it big as superstars, you know, by this point, they didn't really save all the backups, it sounds like. So for shame, you back up everything, guys. I still have raw video files from when I actually had the Average Trainer West YouTube channel sitting on hard drives. You never, ever, ever delete anything. There's a nickel's worth of free advice for you right there. But anyway, I started ran into that snag and it's just like, well, oh, man, I am so obsessive compulsive enough to, like, if I can't have this one episode, it's going to drive me nuts. And then as I started getting into it more, I'm just like this. There's just no possible way. Even if I took like one minute from every single episode, that's still like 199 minutes, which would be. Which is about like the length of the actual show that I put together. So, like, you know, it's not unheard of for the backlog breakdown, but that was a bit much for me. And there was just no way I could find only one minute of material because even in that first episode zero, like, there was like three or four minute clips that I was able to string together. And gosh, it was funny. It was just funny. So anyway, as I re listened to all of these episodes over the course of the last several months, like, it was just. It was just such a good experience because it really reminded me about how these two formed a community from the very beginning and how they were really focused on that, to be honest, because they were community building from, like, day one. They had their own Facebook group that they had as an offshoot of the reformed gamers. And then that became its own thing as a podcast. And then we were able to really get like, knee deep in all the community stuff, like, really early on within the first 10 episodes. And it was really great. It was awesome. I still remember when they opened up the Patreon and I was like one of two. I think it was just me, Micah, Josh and Nate. And that was pretty much it, I think, for a while before some other people joined in. And that was super fun. But anyway, getting back, I'm getting off on all these rabbit trails. I just thought it would be good as I went along to try to find the best pieces of information that I could possibly get from as many different episode types as I could. And unfortunately, a lot of them turned out to be more like in depth game discussions. But I wanted to get a really, really good breadth and flavor of what the backlog breakdown is so that as I'm going through this journey of remembering the episodes and being super nostalgic about them, other people will experience that too. So why did I choose the format that I did? That's a great question, random person who definitely didn't ask that right now. Why did I choose that format? To me, it looked. It felt like my initial idea was to not only just take the clips, but also present it in, like a mockumentary way in which I would have people actually doing voices for like, different fictional characters that are remembering, like, the backlog breakdown, like, 50 years in the future, 100 years in the future. Be like, oh, yeah, Sonny. I remember when I listened to the backlog breakdown and they talked about how Super Mario Brothers 3 was better than Super Mario Brothers World. And I just. I don't know about that, man. Mario World is so much better. You know, something like that. And I was going to do, like, you know, found footage, quote unquote, like, behind the scenes type stuff where I would badly imitate their voices and, like, really hype up the drama. There was like, the Simpson episode that was actually released. I don't know when it was released. It was like the 10th anniversary or something, which gave, like, a fictional account of the Simpsons family and their rise to fame and their fall from power and everything. And it was really fascinating. That's kind of what I was riffing on. I think other mockumentaries do that too. I think this is final Tap actually does it too. Still haven't watched that yet, to my chagrin. But I just thought, oh, that would be such a cool idea. Ran into a bit of a snag, though, because honestly, I'm not that creative and I'm not that good of a writer. I am not, Nick. Like, I cannot just come up with these random, fantastical, like, scenarios in my head and everything and come up with all these different voices that he does. Like, he is an absolute pro at it, and you should give him all the props because, like, he was actually willing to, like, get in with me and, like, start doing voice recording. But then I decided I really need to pivot here because this is just not working the way I want and I'm just not coming up with good ideas. And I probably should have asked him a little bit more, but, you know, my bad, Nick. My bad. You know, I'll give you, like, a cookie next time I see you. So that's where I kind of caught the idea of, like, okay, so I'm kind of looking at this in a global perspective. It is still kind of a documentary mockumentary style. And it was actually funny as I was, like, using it. I'm just like, you know what would be really helpful here? Because I'm not super creative. As if I used chat GPT to help me come up with, like, some scripting ideas because I felt like it could be super over the top and bombastic and how it presented the backlog breakdown as this, like, epic milestone in human history. Like, podcasts were never the same again after this and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it kind of starts off that way if you. You can still kind of hear the initial seeds of that idea in the first two era segments, like the introduction, era one, a little bit in era two as well. But then I also was kind of pivoting in era 3, 4, and the epilogue to where it was, like, actually just, like, going up to episode 200 rather than looking back on it, like, 50 years later. But I did have it, like, present this really big, exciting, like, oh, my goodness, we've, like, unearthed a treasure. And this is something that your great, great, great, great, great grandchildren are going to see in, like, hundreds of years and everything. And they're going to be watching this in class or it's going to be beamed straight into their head and they're going to learn about the. Just this historical moment known as the backlog breakdown, which kind of comes through in the final product a little bit. But, you know, I could have put a little bit more work into that, so. But here's the problem. Time was getting away from me because I started doing this actually before I feel like I even moved, maybe more than six months ago. I can't actually remember because I remember listening to a lot of the episodes in order. Maybe I've had this idea for, like, way longer. I can't even remember. But I remember, like, listening to the episodes in the car and kind of, like, taking some mental notes. I was like, okay, that's something interesting. I want to touch on this collection of episodes. Seems pretty interesting. This kind of quotation. Like, do they cover this in a different episode? Like that? I was kind of taking all these mental notes as I was going. But then I moved from, like, completely different states and got a new job and started my master's degree. And I got the beginning parts of my thesis all done, which itself was like 25 plus pages with tons of citations and everything has to follow APA format or the professor's gonna kill you. You know, that kind of, like, pressure put on me. So I was running out of time when I originally had, like, all the time in the world. So I had to kind of cut corners and decide, like, okay, I got to focus on just these parts. And I feel like the episodes that I selected, while maybe not like, as broad ranging in topics as I would have liked, I feel like they really did cover a lot. Like, for example, the Colin Moriarty episode. Like, I had to mention that one because that was like, their big first foray into, like, whoa, this is mainstream games journalism. Slash Media and everything. And they were able to get an interview with him. A guy that's probably listened to by hundreds and thousands of people. I don't know how many like listeners he has, but I know that the Last Stand media stuff is super big still, even years after it was formed. So that was really important. I had to get that one in there. Talking about like the Metroidvania stuff with Super Metroid and Castlevania, I thought that was a great dissection of like exposing a classic game as maybe not all as it seems, which they also did with Super Mario Brothers 3 for a bit and they also did with Mega Man X later on. But I feel like those two. That two punch hit right there where they kind of themed it together and really focused on it. I thought that was really good. And of course I had to add the episodes where I was in because I mean, that wasn't even all the episodes I was in. Guys, I could have just really made this Wesley love fest. Come on. You guys missed out on basically the Wesley edit and maybe I'll make that sometime. That'd be actually kind of funny if I do that. Maybe I'll put it out here on retronym, I don't know. Or put it on retronim. Not here, because this is a bite sized episode. Not retronym. Haha. But that was my general thought going into this. I was able to capture a lot of big broad ideas that Nate and Josh have really wrestled over the years. And I think that I accomplished what I set out to do. It's not necessarily like this is the final product I had in mind the entire time, but I feel like as I kept refining my process, this was the best option that I had for the context that I'm in and had. I had like another year to plan this or maybe even up to episode 300. Maybe I can kind of revisit this idea. But if I had a lot more time to really sink into this and was able to keep like a dedicated schedule, it could have been so much more. Like I not, you know, I'm not tooting my own horn here. Like it could have been so much more. I really wish I could have done just a little bit more with it. But for the context that I found myself in, I feel like it was really, really good. Honestly, one of the reasons why I settled on. I was originally going to read the entire script myself and I was just going to try to put on this big announcer voice and everything. And I realized that is so many hours of Recording and there is no possible way that I'm going to find a quiet place long enough to be able to do like however many takes I would need of it. Because normally when I'm recording a bite size or a retronym episode, like I don't even have to deal with like doing more than like one or two takes. Like I'm usually pretty good at doing like one take and that's pretty much it. And I don't have to edit too much if at all because I tried to take out all the filler words that I possibly can. And now you're gonna go back and re listen to this episode and be like, oh, you said um, and huh and what here? And like. But yeah, that is kind of my process normally. But I knew that reading a script like this, it was not going to work. I did that a little bit with this backlog life, if anybody remembers that from years ago where I actually did like an NPR style radio show for covering different parts of the Game Boy and everything for the backlog breakdown, it was one of the better special episodes I did. I think in my humble opinion, which I did not include because again wasn't going for a Wesley love fest here. But if you want to give Wesley some money because you know he likes to buy video games, you can do that if you want to. Not going to stop you. But yeah, like when I did that, I remember having to do so many takes because I just had not like refined my speaking voice to the point where I could really like zero in on a proper performance first take. And because of that I knew this is not going to work for me recording it. What was funny was that ElevenLabs had released the Eleven Reader app not too long before. I don't know when they had released it, but I had been playing around with it just reading documents to me in like different celebrity voices that they have. And the funny part was that the original script that I had worked with with AI and everything and when I say I worked with Chat GPT, I mean like it came up with a lot of. I came up with the outline, it spat out a lot at me, but there was still a lot of editing going on. So like, you know, this is like a 5050 process. Don't, don't give Chat GPT all the credit here. Come on. I really worked on the script and was making sure that there are still some in jokes in that document that I don't think anybody or anybody's going to get because it is such a deep cut to Such a specific episode that I just don't think unless you are like me and you can remember a lot of the stuff that you listen to in podcasts, you're not going to know what I'm talking about. And those were just for me. So, you know, if you want to, like, try to find them, go for it. I might not even remember which ones they were at this point, but, yeah, so what was funny was that they had celebrity voices reading. So I was like, oh, well, I'll take the document that I've been crafting here. I'm gonna put it into 11 reader. I'm gonna have it being read by Burt Reynolds voice, because that's one of the voice options that they have. And it was amazing. The entire script that I had at that point, I got to hear it in Burt Reynolds voice, and it was fantastic. But when I went to the actual 11 Labs website, I was just like, I don't think I can use Burt Reynolds voice on this, because there could be some rights issues if they're putting this out on the podcast feed. So I was able to find one specific voice, and I think I did a little bit of twinking with it. I think the voice name was Daniel, and it's like a British gentleman. And it just so, like, with whatever I was able to get it done with it, I was able to make it sound like Peter Davison, who's the fifth doctor on Doctor who. Who's not necessarily my favorite doctor, although that's probably the one I look the most like because he's got that wavy hair and he's like a young chapter, and he looks continually youthful, but his voice is just so perfect for it. And it sounds like I'm listening to, like, a big finish Doctor who audio drama as he's reading it. So I was like, if I can't have the Burt Reynolds voice, this is the voice I want. So for all of you who were wondering, yes, I went for the fifth Doctor's voice on that. So a little bit of trivia there for you. But, yeah, I was getting down to the wire, and I was just like, oh, my goodness. I. I got to get this done. And I even took the musical bits that you hear on there. 11 labs did that, too. They actually have these. I was. I was going to go for, like, more of a audio drama sound at the beginning and end. Like, somebody found, like, a lost videotape, and all you could hear were the footsteps going up the steps. Like, then they open up their apartment door, then they walk in. They Turn on their tv, they take out a videotape. They put the videotape in the vcr, and all of this would be communicated through sound effects. And it'd be the little static, and then you would hear that orchestrated piece that plays at the beginning. Maybe I could try to add something like that to it and send it to Josh. I don't think it's going to make it to the feed if I do that, but that's something I want to try to do in the future. For any other anniversary episodes. I don't know, maybe if the Retro Zoo super show ever comes back and if it ever hits 200 episodes, maybe I'll do that for him. Because Paul's also a pretty cool guy. That's kind of what I was going for. And I was going to, like, I. I mean, every part of me really, really, really wanted to clone Nate and Josh's voice. And I. I was so close to asking them permission to clone their voice on 11 labs because it doesn't sound too shabby. And I. I've done that with my own voice. It's like, it's. It's a little bit off if you know what you're looking for or listening for. But it. It. I don't know, it kind of fools me sometimes, like, not like knowing, oh, that's my voice, kind of sort of. But I didn't end up doing it because I don't know how they feel about that. And it's like, yeah, they use the AI images and everything, and maybe they use different AI tools to help them with writing or getting stuff prepared for the podcast. I don't know what the preparation process is, but I felt like that might be a bridge too far for them, so I wasn't going to do it. But, man, you know, it had been really fun, though. I had been trying to figure out how to make a Rush Limbaugh radio voice clone, but that didn't work either. I was trying to figure that out, but that would have been awesome, too. Could you imagine Rush Limbaugh narrating behind the Breakdown? I mean, come on, that would have been classic. Whatever you think about Rush Limbaugh, you know, whatever, I don't care. But his voice. Fantastic. Loved his voice. Such a good radio voice. But, yeah, that's. That's behind the. That's. Let me see. How did I call this? Breaking down behind the breakdown. That's kind of what my thought process was. And, you know, props to Josh and Nate. Like, they put out their. What was it? The. The bookends to the actual episode before I had actually gotten the whole thing to them. And so like, their reactions are like, I'm not sure. Does this make sense contextually for what I actually put out here? Not really, but they did their darndest and they had to wait on me and you know, yeah, I had my own busyness and they had their own busyness too. So, you know, it's just like, you know, we were all busy. I felt really bad because I had promised them something like weeks ago. And then my thesis took over and I did my best, guys, I did my best. I did what I could. But yeah, you know, they, they did their best and I think what they put out is a quality product. And let me just take a minute here. I've been listening to this podcast from the very beginning. As a matter of fact, I was part of some of those beta episodes that they put out to kind of figure out how the podcast is supposed to work. You know, maybe, maybe I'm a little bitter that I wasn't chosen as one of the co hosts. Maybe. I don't know. No, actually, not at all. Because there's no way I would have had time and I never had proper Internet for it. But man, part of me almost wonders like, man, if I had good Internet back then, I wonder what could have been, could have been really interesting to be like the third chair on their podcast. But that's okay. I was never that. But this is my way of giving back to them because they provided me so many hours of entertainment and there's no way I could have lived up to the quality expectations that they have. And while I do give them some advice sometimes, that's me just kind of like armchair quarterbacking. And I, I hope they understood and can get like what I'm going for. And then I'm never trying to step on their toes and I kind of did this whole project without their permission for a while. So like, I had no idea how they would react, especially to my use of AI voices. But they are absolute champions, absolute legends. You should be listening to the Backlog Breakdown podcast if you don't. Normally, if you are like just some random passerby who hasn't listened to the podcast before or you're some like 90 year old British guy who's like, hey, what's a podcast? I don't know. That's not British at all. What's a podcast? I don't know what that is. This just showed up on my Amazon Alexa and I'm just letting it roll because this guy is hilarious. And thank you, thank you, random 90 year old listener. I glad you think I'm hilarious. But yeah, you should listen to them, they're awesome. I appreciate them. You should appreciate them too. You should go to their patreon. If you're not a patron member of the backlog breakdown, what are you doing? You gotta do it at least a buck a month. Come on, you gotta give em that buck a month because they need it. They really need it. No, like seriously, they actually like really need it. They've been telling me on the download. No, I'm kidding. But they deserve all of the money because they put out more hours of content than I think most podcasts could ever think about doing. Like, I listen to a lot of podcasts. I was an early adopter of podcasts back in like 2004, 2005, right when they had first started. And I've been listening to podcasts basically every day of my life since then. Like this podcast has staying power. It has had staying power the entire time that it's been going. And every month I dread, or at the beginning of every year I guess, because, you know, not lately, but like every new year I dread. Like, is this going to be the time when they actually stop the podcast? Am I going to be missing out on this podcast for the rest of my life? Is it actually going to be done? And every single time I, you know, my worries are quelled and like they're, they're not ending the actual podcast or anything. Maybe they're just retooling things, maybe they're rethinking things, but they're not ending the podcast. But every time they come out with an important announcement, it always is in the back of my mind. Could I be listening to the last backlog breakdown? That would be sad to me because I really, really love it. And it has been one of the only podcasts with staying power over the last like decade of my life. Podcasts have come and gone. All of those like reform podcasts that had, you know, spun out from the report form pub back in 2014. I mean, how many of them are actually left over? Like a couple. And the backlog breakdown, while it started a little bit later than some of those other ones, it's actually like stuck around through thick and thin, huge political upheavals, Covid all of that. And they are one of the few left that really focus on having a Christian worldview while playing video games. And that's great. We need this niche. Like there might be some others out there. I don't know of any others. So that's the thing. I can't find any others, especially with those who have some good foundations under their belt. Like, there might be some squishy evangelical ones out there, but none that are from, like, you know, the reformed word is kind of thrown out there as, like, a buzzword. And I get that. But, you know, it is really, like, a good, like, theological framework to look at things, and it's. It's very, like, strong. Like, I don't have funny, you know, good words to, like, describe it. Like, the reform worldview is a strong one. That's what we need. And a lot of them are gone now. And so I think Nate and Josh were really sticking with it. Like, I don't know what motivates them, honestly, because, like, you know, you got this guy Wes who's constantly like, oh, you should do this, you should do this, you should do this. And come on, like, who needs I hang around like that? I get it. You know, I'm just annoying as I'll get out. And I've seen the group grow over the years, and I really, really like it. And it's just like, man, I wish I had that kind of motivation to continue my own podcast projects. But they are just on it week in, week out. Sometimes they take a few breaks. But they are so dedicated to getting you something out basically every single week of the year, and that's commendable. So you should become a patron if you're not already. If you are already a patron, at least increase that to the next patron tier level. You know, $1 to $5, $5 to 10, do $10 to whatever it is, because I don't know anything beyond that, but beyond, you guys need to support these two because they're awesome and, you know, they would never do this themselves, so I'm going to do it for them. Support the backlog breakdown. Pass the collection plate around, get some money. Come on. They are super awesome. Okay, guys, I'm not being super cringe. Don't worry. But yeah, I love them. Even if you don't support them financially, you should, like, support them by word of mouth. Share their videos. They're doing such a good job on videos right now, getting them out along with the episodes. You know, support them in whatever way that you can. Share the episodes. Pass them on to a friend somehow. Click, like, on the video. Click the little star on the Overcast app that says that you like this podcast. I don't know if that actually helps. Give them the five stars that they deserve, because they really do. I have listened to every single episode of the backlog Breakdown. I have listened to every bro hang, every bite size, everything that's been put out by these two guys over the last eight years at this point. It's good quality stuff. You know, they were a little bit rough in the beginning. Not gonna lie. Oh, my goodness. Those microphones were hurting my ears after a while. But I really like them, and you should, too, and you should support them in whatever way that you can because they're super cool. But anyway, off my soapbox now, guys. It's been an absolute pleasure to serve you in this way. I hope it was a good surprise, you know, I hope you weren't just like, oh, my God. Goodness. I feel so obligated to share this because Wes put hours and hours of work into this, but it's absolute garbage. I hope that wasn't how it is, but if it is, don't tell me, because that's going to hurt my fragile little ego. But anyway, support the backlog breakdown. You can find them everywhere, basically. You know, tell a friend about them. It's been so fun to help them out over the years, and I look forward to the next 200 episodes and just seeing how things go. And, oh, my goodness, it would be so embarrassing right now if they decided to end the podcast at the end of this year. And this is how we end. Oh, my goodness. I don't even know how I would handle that, but as I am, like, curled up in the corner, you know, blowing air or using the little brown paper bag for, I don't know, whatever people use this for. Like breathing into a brown paper bag and trying not to hyperventilate. Go ahead and click like, on this because, you know, you should. And you should support the backlog breakdown. I said that 20,000 times. Support the backlog breakdown. Enjoy that 200th episode. Put a lot of work into it. But you know what? It was a labor of love. It was a labor of love. But, yeah, until next time, keep breaking down that backlog, and I'm sure that they will keep. What does it say here? Breaking down the benefits. And I'm sure backlogs and finances are there somewhere, Sam.