The 10 Most Artistic Video Games Ever Made | The Backlog Breakdown Ep. 218

Welcome back. To another episode of the Backlog Breakdown, a video game podcast where we seek to encourage and to equip the church to engage the medium of video games wisely and responsibly. I'm one of your hosts, Josh, and with me today is my co-host, my brother in Christ, my friend Nate. How's it going, Nate?

It's me, dude.

It's-a me, dude.

Dude.

Sorry. You know, we, we do this every episode, but, uh, man, I, I just— I always forget how hard that opening music goes. I dig it. I dig it. And I don't know how long it'll stay there. I know it's a long opening theme. Maybe we need to get something that's more like 5 seconds or 10, just a little stinger, you know? Why, why is it quite so long? I get it. I get it. It's not gonna be there forever, but I enjoy it. That's all I'm saying. That's all I'm saying.

Perhaps. I don't know, man. I mean, like, I think until— I think it's fine the way it is. I think it's fine. I think it's fine. I was, I was trying to make the— do like the stank face like that.

Yes. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. This is fine.

This is fine.

This is fine.

It's fine. I have a little, uh, my, uh, I keep a, like, I think they call it a Common Book. Yeah, it's just like a little notebook that I just write different thoughts or like lists and stuff in, and I have the This Is Fine meme dog sticker on it. Yep. Yeah, it's kind of fun.

That's, yeah, the things that live, you know, rent-free in my head. I quoted that to my wife at some point. It was some point recently. I want to say within the last like month or two, and she had no idea what I was talking about.

This is from—

This thing. Yeah. Yeah, because I said it like the video. This is fine.

This is fine.

Fine. And what does he say after that? Like, I don't remember. I am totally fine with this situation that I— that is occurring around me or something like that. I don't know, because I think it was Adult Swim. Is what that's from? Pretty sure.

Leave Sue.

Anyways, it's— it doesn't matter at all. I'm just saying that my wife didn't know until I showed her. That's all. But she knew the meme, so she understood. She just didn't know. Oh, that was— that's from a video. Where's that meme from? I don't know. Just lives on the internet like all memes do.

I mean, dude, that's actually just kind of like Yeah, that's memes. They just live on the internet and in your brain rent-free.

Sweet, sweet maymays.

What?

Maymays, you know, memes. Anyways, uh, hey, hey, before we jump into our episode, because today, I mean, we're talking about memes, right? Memes and video game memes. No, we're not talking about memes. We're talking about art. The opposite.

We're talking about transcendent things.

That's right. So why would we start off this episode at such a low bar?

Because we're stupid. Yeah, because you're stupid. Yeah, and I'm stupid.

That's probably what it is.

It's like I was, I was telling somebody, I was like, I've come to terms with the fact that like little boys, like the more little boys you have together, the less brains they have exponentially. So if you have 2 little boys, they have half a brain between the 2 of them. 3 little boys, a third of a brain. 4, and you go down accordingly. Yeah. Maybe that's not exponential, but it's bad.

No, it's not. But if you actually adjust to physical brains, then I suppose it would be exponential. The way that you're describing actually makes it super easy because it's just fractional.

Yeah, you know, but the more little boys you have, the less brains you have, because like, they just get dumb.

They're like, hey, they naturally suppress most of their brain.

Eat this weird bug that is very dangerous looking. Okay.

Yeah, and normally they wouldn't, but if there's a group of boys, it's like, yeah, you gotta show 'em up.

'Cause yeah, you can't be chicken.

Exactly.

You can't have brains in your head.

'Cause those boys wanna be men.

Yeah.

And so suppress that brain that you have, the rules.

And we are just— We're drilled in there. I think what I'm sort of saying is that we are essentially just men-children. And so you put the two of us together and we're lucky if we have half a brain.

Okay, okay.

That's what I'm saying.

Well, between our half of a brain, we have 2 lists that we are gonna be tackling today, putting them together and setting up the official top 10 Artsiest games. I don't, I don't even know how to describe it. Top 10 games as art? I don't know.

Yeah, I, I couldn't come up with, I mean, like the, the, the sort of like what I wrote in the notes is the artsiest fartsiest games. But that's not a very good title.

No, especially not for the grandeur of what we're aiming for.

Yeah, but also it made me laugh. Yeah, but it's it's not a very good title. It's so maybe why we're talking.

Astra list, right? Sure, you know. But like it's like the stars with paint.

The top top ten games is art games. That's a dumb title.

Yeah, the artiest games of all time. Ten. I think we're getting worse.

Hmm. We didn't start out strong, and we are quickly devolving. See, I spent.

my time thinking about my list. I did not spend any time thinking about what the list was going to be called. Simply, it is coming in contrast to what our next episode potentially is going to be, which are Big Dumb Fun Games. That's gonna be fun. It's in the name.

It's gonna be dumb.

That one's easy enough. That is gonna be really dumb. So I guess we're gonna have to start off with some—

It's gonna be big.

Quotations of, uh, of philosophers and, you know, the Stoics and things like that. That way we can just devolve into madness the further on the episode that it is. But this one comes on the other end of the spectrum. Big dumb fun games are, are just that. They're, they're fun. We enjoy them. But there are also games that, that you mentioned, kind of peek into the realm of transcendence, you know, that do something more. And that's actually how I had kind of come up with my list, is thinking of games primarily that do something that only video games could do. There's something that's very unique to the medium that couldn't be experienced through a movie, through some other kind of medium, a book perhaps. But I'm getting a little bit ahead of myself. Before we jump into the main topic of the episode, we do want to just— The Hit pause for just a second here because we have our beatdown going on throughout the year. So we got to talk about what we've been playing and, and how that reflects in our beatdown score. So Nate, what do you have to bring to the table for this, this form? Your backlog report.

Just playing, uh, still sort of chugging along on Returnal. Um, okay. I had mentioned in the phone call that I had gotten through the, the, the first act of the game, I guess, where— so I finally sort of got through all 3 of The, the, this is the mildest of spoilers. So, um, but yeah, I got through the first act and then it sort of, and the game just gets harder after that, but it's good. It's, it's still a great game, dude. Like Housemarque, just like that game has like, has some just absolutely great hooks into it. Um, I did, I have been checking out the Mortal Shell 2 demo beta.

Nice.

Overall, I'm pretty positive on it. It does a few things I think are pretty interesting. Um, so it's a soulslike, but it doesn't have a stamina bar or stamina meter.

Okay.

And which— so it lends itself almost to more of like an action game kind of feel. And I like that.

Um, okay.

It's kind of an interesting concept. It's the demo beta, whatever.

I—

so far what I played, I think it's really kind of cool and interesting. It's definitely got like the Dark Souls, Bloodborne, Elden Ring vibes where it's just like there's this thing called the Undermether, Mether, whatever. It's like the Undermother, but it's with an E instead of an O. Um, yeah. And yeah, it's a, it's a really weird game. But it's kind of cool so far. Um, like I said, I'm just playing the demo beta sort of thing available for free. And, uh, based off of what I'm playing, like at some point in time, I wouldn't mind picking up, uh, also pecking away at Radiant Historia: Perfect Chronology still on my 3DS. So yeah, it's pretty good. I did fire up, um, I did fire up, uh, Jagged Alliance 3. Parker and I had Picked that up, you know, a couple of years ago to play that together. And so I'm just kind of going through the, the, it's like a co-op sort of XCOM adjacent thing. And I, I, I'm going through the tutorial so that he and I can sort of like chew through that together online, but that's nothing. But I haven't really.

That's awesome.

Yeah. Yeah. So far the tutorial has been kind of fun, but, uh, haven't picked up anything, haven't beaten anything. And so my beatdown score is still at -1. How about you, my guy? What you been up to?

Nice. Not too much. As, as you mentioned, with the phone call that we had previously, I talked a bunch about the network test that I participated in for the Dusk Bloods because it's a network test that doesn't really fit into any of our categories of the beatdown. It just means, hey, I'm taking away time that I could be spending beating down my backlog. So I did not get much of my backlog Beaten down. I'm a failure as a podcast co-host because, uh, I'm not really doing what the title of our podcast kind of implies that we would be doing, which is breaking down our backlogs. Well, but in this case, it's beating them down because we do break down games, and that'll come later. Anyways, doesn't matter. Um, so Duskbloods is, is what I played over the previous weekend that I had some time. Um, and I enjoyed it. I think it's a, it's a very interesting take on the genre. Uh, the, the, you know, Dark Souls, Bloodborne, uh, Blood Souls, right? That's what they call them. Darkborns. Um, those games, dude, I know they're Soulsborne games. I'm just, I'm just being—

Just, what is it? Search action platformers or whatever that stupid name is, right?

Yes. Yeah. Or even worse is Castlevania. Castle rides. Yes, I do have— I do indeed have castle rides. They're very painful.

It's painful for me to hear that.

Exactly, exactly. Um, no, anyways, it is— yeah, Duskbloods, it's an interesting take on the formula. I, I never played, uh, Elden Ring: Night Rain, so I don't know how that multiplayer goes, and I don't know how similar that is to what Duskbloods does. But essentially, you have different characters that you choose from that have different loadouts, or you can, you can change their loadouts, but they play pretty significantly differently. Like, there is a sniper character. There's the main character that you start off with is just your kind of typical sword wielder kind of a guy. There's a dude that can turn into a dinosaur. There's another guy that's slow and lumbering, but he's got a jetpack and so he can shoot his way at people. Like, they have their 8 characters with very different playstyles. You choose one and then you get through 3 different phases of the night. And at the end of each phase, sort of like with Mario Kart World and their— what is it, the road, the road trip? I can't think of what it's called, but the, the kind where if you're in the lowest kind of tier, by the time that you finish a certain track, you're knocked out. That's kind of how this game works as well until you get to your final— I think it's 3 people at the very end. Then you just duke it out between each other.

So how, how far did you get?

Oh, so it has tutorials that Um, aren't very tough. So before it actually pairs you up with other people, uh, it, it goes through tutorials. So the tutorials I finished, so I technically made it through the night, um, with the tutorials. But then when it came to actually playing with other people, I never made it to the third phase. Um, I only made it to the second phase. Because you're still— I'm still kind of, you know, playing a network test. Like, I'm still getting used to the, the map itself, um, because the map is, is large enough to where it's got distinct areas within the map, but they're all connected. And so you could run into other people, you could help other people take down a boss, you could, you know, you could do all kinds of stuff. But if you wander around for a while, you're gonna find something. There's gonna be something special. You can upgrade stuff, you know, find something. all, all kinds of stuff throughout the map. So, um, but no, I did not make it very far when I actually fought against other people. Uh, the one observation that I will say that I failed to mention on the phone call is that I think for these types of games, um, while most of my gaming nowadays as a dad, uh, is handheld, I don't think these types of games, the Soulsborne games, for me at least, I don't think playing them handheld is the ideal way to play them.

Mm-mm.

Um, I, I feel like— so I, I could tell because the game is so bloody, I couldn't play it on the main screen because I— you only had those certain times for the network test, and my kids were around, and so I did not want to play it around them. And, uh, so I had to play it handheld. And the screen, while I love the The Switch 2, it just felt a bit small for stuff that's going on. And, but also I wanted it to be stationary. I want, yeah, I wanted that experience of playing it on a bigger screen. Um, and I didn't get that, but that's purely my own fault because you can just dock the Switch 2, you know? Um, but just an observation. Anyways, that's, that's mostly what I've been playing. Yeah.

Do you think that like Sorry. Based on sort of your experience, are you like interested in checking it out a little bit more or—

Checking it out more? Yes. It is not something that I'm like itching to, oh, I absolutely need to get this. It's more that, hey, it reminds me, oh yeah, I never finished Elden Ring. I should probably go, you know, finish that one up because it's a great game. Because moment to moment, it does feel very similar. to, uh, to Soulsborne games. It just doesn't have the same, uh, thing that you're aiming at throughout the game as those do. So it's, it's, it's a good game, and I expect it'll be— I, I expect that people will really enjoy it. The people who like it will love it, uh, absolutely, and they'll break it wide open and, you know, make crazy builds and know exactly what to go for, what resources to get and stuff like that. I, in a way, I, it kind of reminds me of Splatoon and the way that that takes a shooter and then does something totally different with it. So if you don't want to go shoot other people, you can just like try and hide and paint the map. This game takes, you know, kind of PvP combat But also throws in so many other things that like, if you don't want to fight other people, you don't have to until the very end. Then, then, then you absolutely have to. Yes. Yeah. But by that time, if you haven't focused on fighting other people, maybe you focused on upgrading your character in certain ways, you know? And so it's kind of a, yeah, it's risk reward, all that stuff. So it's, it is an interesting concept and it was fun. I enjoyed it, but cool. It is intense as those games tend to be. Outside of that, played a little bit more of Octopath Traveler 2, making my way through that, but not too far into it. I still, yeah, it's, it's, that one's going to be long haul kind of a game for me. So my beatdown score remains at negative 6 for the year so far. Uh, I need to, need to get, need to pump those numbers up. But I haven't been able to lately. Sorry, I have failed you for the last time. I don't know. I'm sure I'll fail you again. Anyways.

I'm sure you will too.

It's just my MO, you know? Failure comes in threes, right?

Failure, your name is Joshua.

Ah, thy name. There you go. Anyways, well, speaking of failures, We've got a main topic to cover that has nothing to do with failure. There was no segue there. I just wanted to see what happened.

No, no. I'll tell you what, sometimes I'm like, oh, that was a decent try. But no, that one was just like, nope, that was just bad.

I did not even try at all. Yeah. But here we go. So we do want to discuss games that make the best argument for video games as art. And as I mentioned before, as I was trying to pick out games, some of the criteria for me were video games that do something that only video games can do, as opposed to other forms of media. The other thing that I was trying hard to do, which I may or may not have succeeded throughout my list, Is that, um, because of the nature of this list, I did not want to put very much weight on the actual enjoyment of the gameplay.

Mm-hmm.

As much as I would typically do for other types of video games. So for instance, when you think of very artsy movies, you don't necessarily think of how much did I enjoy myself when I watched it. It's more about, did this experience actually— was there something transcendent? Did this teach me something even if I was uncomfortable in the midst of it? And so you'll see that reflected. And I mean, as we talk about these games, I just wanted to lay that out there, is that that was some of the criteria that I was trying to incorporate with my list. So we each are coming to the table With 10 games, we'll discuss them, and then we'll formulate our top 10 and kind of make arguments for where we want to slot these things in. I don't know how much into honorable mentions we really want to go, but I'm sure that some of the, you know, if our lists aren't exactly the same, we have not seen each other's list before this recording. So I'm sure there's going to be some overlap, but I'm sure there's going to be a lot of games that are not overlap as well. That may have been, uh, runners-up and things like that, because I do have a pretty substantial list of games that didn't quite make the cut. However, um, in, in a lot of ways they are deserving of that. So, uh, without further ado, unless you have any other kind of preface that you want to give before we just dive right in and take a look at the lists.

No, I did want to just sort of hit on it real quick, uh, just to sort of— I think like, I think what you said about removing some of the, the fun factor element, where it's like, because I, I think that sometimes like, especially in the games as art, in considering games as art, like sometimes art isn't always pleasant. Sometimes it actually causes, like provokes us. Like I think about Schindler's List.

Mm-hmm.

Yep. That is not a fun movie to watch, but it is good and people should watch it. So it's kind of like one of those things that some of these games, I wouldn't even say like, oh, this is like the most fun I've ever had. It's more of like, no, I think there's something interesting here. I, I also like the criteria where you're just like, in some ways, like, these are games that really couldn't be anything else because so much of the, what they have to say is tied to the sort of the interactivity, you know, again. So I think those are, those are good sort of like, those are good sort of guidelines or tentpoles.

So awesome. The final caveat that I just want to give is that we are probably going to have to talk about spoilers with these games because we're talking about what makes them art. And for some of these games, um, you won't know until you get towards the end of what this game is actually trying to say, or even if it's not trying to say something, the question that the game poses. Um, yeah, you mentioned Schindler's List. I, I can think of a number of different movies that I've watched that have impacted me that I do not want to watch again. You know, something like 12 Years a Slave. You know, like, it is a very good movie. It is not one that I enjoy. It's one that I saw and respect, and I think of it highly, but it's not one that I necessarily want to experience. Another one called Room, not The Room, but Room. Oh my goodness, the Captain Marvel actress. I can't think of her name off the top of my head. Brie Larson. Yeah, she starred in that movie.

And it's another one about like I think I know that's the one where it's like she was kidnapped.

Kidnapped. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.

Yeah.

And there are other movies. That movie is tough. Yeah, there's a movie called Prisoners as well that, uh, similar idea, similar themes there. And what, uh, who is the actual prisoner? You know, are you a prisoner to your, um, revenge? Things like that that the movie brings up, but it's uncomfortable. It's not a movie that I, that I enjoy watching. And so, yeah, we'll see that in some of these games also. Um, do you want to go first or do you want— we're going to start from the bottom, from number 10 on our lists, share them, and then discuss them.

Well, that's kind of the problem is that I didn't rank any of mine.

Okay.

Okay.

Um, that's fine.

So I'll just pick one to sort of like throw out there. And, um, I, I think I mean, obviously Shadow of the Colossus is sort of a shoo-in for this conversation.

Heyo.

Um, but that's on my personal list and I am not willing— it's number 1 on my personal list and I'm not willing to sort of give up my number 1 for now.

Okay. Um, okay.

At some point in time I might, um, if we ever revisit this, but I think that, um, Studio Japan, they, they did a couple other games and, um, I think either, uh, The Final Guardian or Ico could be an acceptable sort of entry into this just, um, because I, I think of the, like, Ico, it's mainly about like the escort mission and sort of like it's, it's gamey, but And, and then even The Last Guardian, uh, it's really, it's kind of about interacting with this sort of AI pet sort of thing that has like, it's, it's not really like you training it. It's more of like it reacts to you.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and I think those are very like, kind of like they rep— and even like Shadow of the Colossus, they kind of represent like there's, there's certain challenges in the gameplay. There's a, there's friction there that in just a gamey sense. Um, so I'd like this, I'd like this, I, you know, I'm kind of like throwing either one out there. Uh, full disclosure, like, I haven't beaten either one yet. Like, um, I've played them pretty extensively, but just never enough to the point where it's like, and that's much to my sort of like chagrin or detriment. But I do think just as, as a general sort of idea, uh, Studio Japan, and I can't remember the, uh, The producers, their director's name right now.

But is it Oda or something like that?

I think it is Oda. I'm going to Google. I just like you know this is why doing this late at night is like so good for us.

Yeah, the brain not working.

Yeah, and I'm actually trying to do like a little bit of a caffeine detox.

So ah nice.

Yeah, Ueda. That's what it is.

There you go. There you go.

Fumida, Fumido Ueda. Like he's just like, I think there's a few things that are like he has a definite style and that you see it in Shadow. You see it in Eco and you see it in the Fallen Garden or Fallen Guardian or Final Guardian, Last Guardian.

Last.

Yeah.

Jeepers cats again, the. But you, you see it in all that and it really is this sort of design by deletion where it's like the games that you get in a lot of ways are super minimalist. And I think that like, that's a really interesting approach. And I actually think that that approach actually bears a lot of fruit as well. But yeah, all that being said, uh, yeah, I think like the first is like Ico or The Last Guardian. I think either one would be Yeah, candidate for sure. Yeah, I know that's kind of like cheating by throwing 2 out.

You know, for right now, I think, I think we can work with that. Personally, I would lean more towards Eco just because of its impact. I mean, I've heard of so many different developers reference that game as like, oh, this is the one that changed the way that I thought about games. In, um, kind of parallel with music, I think of so many musicians that say that same thing about OK Computer by Radiohead. Um, like it's seminal, even if I don't connect with it the same way that other people do.

Yeah.

That's the one that I hear a lot about. And I just didn't hear as much, like I've heard Last Guardian is a good game. Again, not like the most fun to play, but that it's good. Um, whereas Ico, I feel like I, I hear a lot of acclaim from developers in general. Uh, anyways, that's neither here nor there. I have not played either of those games myself. I believe I've got Ico on PlayStation 2. Um, Shadow of the Colossus was on my list. However, I want to respect that it is on your top 10.

I mean, It's, it's like, for me, it's like number one with a bullet on the, the games as art list. Like it, it, but it's also like, I'm just not, I'm not ready to let go of it.

Yes.

You know, and, and I understand that because there was that thought actually, uh, Persona 3 is in my like runners-up list. And part of that was because I didn't want to take it off because the more that we've talked about it and we have that episode about it as well. the more I think it belongs on this. Um, yeah, it's wacky anime. Yes. Okay. But also I think it, it delves into the theme of, of death and loss and sorrow and all of the things that sort of that touches on. Yeah. From different perspectives, which I do think is pretty unique. Uh, and, but that's something that a book can do as well.

Like, I don't think it's altogether I mean, just like not to get too far afield here though, like Persona 3 though, it is like one of the things, and this is like, this is sort of like the thing is like that video games do that movies and books can't, is that in a way you really inhabit those spaces.

Yeah.

Um, and so in Persona 3, like you are engaging with those on, you know, through, through the avatar, but like you are engaging with these things on a personal level. Like you are making. And so that, I think that does, even in sort of fictional setups, like all, like all that, it does kind of weigh on you, you know, differently than just sort of watching.

That's true. And then even with the bonds that you have with the different side characters that, that plays out in the mechanics too. Yeah. Yeah. I, I agree. However, I did not want to take that from my personal game list as well.

For sure.

Xenoblade Chronicles 3 is somewhat similar, um, but I do think that's more of like an epic story, um, that isn't, again, altogether unique to the medium in some of the ways that these games are. Anyways, all that to say is that Shadow of the Colossus was on my list, but, um, we can nix it because I do want to respect it. I totally get, hey, it's your favorite game of all time. You can keep that on your top 10. That's fine. Um, so with that out of the way, actually at the bottom of my list, and it's funny you mentioned Last Guardian. and Ico, and that you haven't finished the games. I have not played this game, but it's on my list because I've watched many videos about this game, and I know that I can't handle it. It's a game called That Dragon, Cancer.

Uh...

It is a walking simulator game where you play a— or you inhabit a man Whose young son, I believe he's 3 or 4, has cancer. And it, it puts you in different experiences, different scenes of what it's like trying to care for a child who has cancer while this man is also kind of narrating his thoughts and his feelings. And at moments, there's a lot of anger, you know, at the world, at God, at this young boy who just can't stop crying or screaming, things like that. And so it's very uncomfortable. And again, I haven't played it because of how difficult the subject matter is.

Mm-hmm.

But I do think that this fits into a discussion of allowing you to inhabit in some small way. Obviously, it's not the same as actually having a child, having to take care of him day in and day out. However, it at least puts you into a scene, into a moment in time. Um, and, and it wants you to wrestle with— wrestle through the difficulty and, you know, hopefully gain some empathy, uh, some sympathy there as well. Um, but to, to wrestle with that. And I do believe that the, that the, um, the person who made it is a believer, um, which, praise God, like, you can actually have hope. because of that, but it's very difficult subject matter. So anyways, that's— so it's the bottom of my list because I haven't played it, but I haven't played it because I don't think I can handle it. That's all.

Yeah, no, that's, uh, that's fair. Um, I think the next one I'm gonna kind of throw out here, and some of this is gonna be like sort of like low-hanging fruit, but actually I think, uh, Outer Wilds is kind of a really, um, you know, I did not enjoy that game nearly as much, I think, as like you or Mark or some of our other friends did. But, uh, I actually think I, I thought like the further out I get from it, the more I kind of appreciate it, even if I didn't really enjoy it.

Okay.

Um, I found it to kind of be a little frustrating, a little cumbersome, but it's actually also just a really interesting— it's just a really inner— it's really interesting.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and just the way that that game sort of like the, the narrative and the meta narrative sort of unspools and then sort of Like even that, that ending. Um, now I, you know, we, we talked a little bit about the ending when we did the episode with Mark about it.

Yeah.

I just like, I kind of raged at it. Maybe rage is a bit of a strong word, but I was really upset with the ending because it just, it's, again, it sort of retreats in sort of like the futility of nihilism of like the secular humanist. Well, it doesn't really matter anyways, but you know, go, go like, you know, screaming, you know, into the night kind of thing. And it's like, I just always find that, that answer or that solution to be really just boring and kind of sad. And, uh, yeah. But yeah, I think it's, it's like one of those things where it's, it does the thing where It just sort of— there's a little bit like that mystery and the uncovering and the sort of— again, like, it's, it's really the fact that, like, you're inhabiting that space. And, um, yeah, it's pretty wild. I like that one.

Nice.

I mean, I like that. I didn't like it, but I kind of like it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That— there was also a, um, uh, kind of a runner-up on my runner-up list, that one's on there. Um, yeah, and especially if you, if you take into the fact I had frustrations with that game as well. Um, but yeah, yeah, it's, it is definitely an interesting one. And yeah, yeah, it does some really cool things. Okay. Um, my next one on the list, and this one is, is like total opposite from That Dragon, Cancer. Um, and maybe I am being hypocritical, you know, when I start off saying that, that it doesn't have anything to do with kind of gameplay, but it's really focused on other things. I actually want to put Dark Souls here, um, because of the way that its mechanics, uh, they communicate a sense of isolation in that. I remember Dark Souls was the first game that I ever played where it feels like the entire world that you play in does not care about you. Like almost every other game that you play, you talk to an NPC and they spill information in a way that humans don't typically do in, in our normal conversations. Like you feel like the hero, you feel like the, the main character of a story in, in every other video game, but Dark Souls doesn't do that. Uh, every other character is much more concerned with themself in the world that they're in. And, and you're just kind of another passing, uh, person, you know, a, a, a hollow, hollowed-out thing that goes by. And so that sense of isolation and the way that the mechanics of how difficult the game is, and I think it really communicates perseverance as well. Like, no one is coming to help you. To a certain extent. You can summon things. Okay. But for the most part, you need to figure this out, and, and you will. Like, you keep bashing your head up against this boss, and eventually you'll make it. And so I think for that, it does communicate through its mechanics and, and the way that, the way that, you know, the story is almost impossible to understand, uh, so esoteric, but the way that the characters communicate with you. I think, I think it also— it was, it was very striking to me when I first played it. I do think that Bloodborne also takes a different tack and, and it brings in this, this sense of madness that is difficult to capture in other games, and that I think this game actually does really well. But Bloodborne's on my list, so I'm not talking Bloodborne here. But anyways, Dark Souls is what I want to put forward Simply because I think it does actually communicate really well and it's a really fun game. So, so that's there too. If it was a terrible game, then maybe I wouldn't put it here. But even with that weighted lower, I do think it actually communicates really well through its mechanics and its world. So Dark Souls.

All right.

I think, I think, uh, Spec Ops: The Line.

Okay.

Is sort of like kind of in keeping up with even just sort of like what you were saying about Dark Souls. Like there's sort of a brutality and there is like a little bit of a difficulty in this game that I you know, sort of addresses the struggle. And like, I, I just think the— like, there's a lot of really interesting imagery in Spec Ops: The Line, like the sort of like the continued descent when you're like, like when you're playing the game, like you're constantly sort of like going down and down and down and down and down. And there's— there's— that feels very— Like, you're just always going deeper. Um, but then just the way that that game ends, I think, is really something pretty, pretty powerful. And, uh, yeah.

Okay.

So yeah, Spec Ops: The Line. And it's, it's heavy. It's heavy material. Like, it's— I mean, just for the fact that it has, like, single-handedly one of the most shocking sort of, like, sequences I've played in a game. Um, white phosphorus, like for anybody who's familiar with the game, you know, they're not, they're going to know exactly what I'm talking about when I say that.

I've heard that term. Um, but after, uh, Octopath Traveler 2, that's my last game on my locked and loaded list. So I still haven't played it yet, but it will be before the end of the year, uh, before the year is out. I will have played it. And, and it, it did make it into my, uh, uh, honorable mentions just because I've heard so much about it. It hasn't been spoiled altogether. It's very vaguely spoiled, but I don't know what white phosphorus refers to, but I have heard it before. So.

Yeah, it's just like, it's, you know, it's kind of one of those things too where I think, uh, you know, Now, now I'm going to even try to be a little more careful when I talk about it, but it's just like, it is really powerful as sort of a, um, this, it's a story about how, like, how powerful, like, self-delusion can be. Um, so.

For sure. Hey, that might, that might come up again on our list. Uh, we'll see. Um, the next game on my list actually is not heavy. Uh, maybe it gets heavy at times, but The Stanley Parable is one that I think, uh, can only be done as a video game. Uh, you know, maybe a choose-your-own-adventure book, but even then, uh, I, I do think there's something very unique about the way that you interact with the narrator and just the amount of bonkers endings and ways that the game can go. Um, I think it is an art piece as well, and in a comedy art piece, you know, like it's not— again, it can be black comedy at times, but overall it keeps a comedic tone. So yeah, Stanley Parable.

Stanley Parable was also on my list. Okay. So just like, yeah, I think, like I said, I didn't— it was like one of those games where it's like, I thought it was like Interesting. I thought it was funny. I— there were like moments of cleverness, but yeah, it is kind of like, it's an interesting sort of meditation on a bunch of different things. Um, that also happens to be kind of a weird video game.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. The meta commentary and the way that it sort of like pokes back at you, the, the fourth wall breaking, all that stuff. Like, that's pretty, pretty— I think that's pretty interesting. Um, so yeah. Uh, I think I have a couple more on here that I like. I think Okami. Just, this is, um, like maybe the game itself, like the, the narrative isn't as, as sort of pressing as like a lot of the others that we're looking at here. Like the dragon, like the narrative for everything else is like really like kind of like, oh, like, hey, that's like the beating heart of this thing. But I think like, Okami is just an absolutely drop-dead gorgeous game. Like that, that sumi-e, um, or however you say that, that watercolor brush style. Like, I think just visually, like, it's sort of a Japanese folk tale in some ways, but like, honestly, it's just like, it's just one of the— it's easily the most visually striking game I've ever played. And Uh, yeah, I think that that alone sort of earns it a place on this list. So, okay.

Okay.

Interesting.

Yeah. Yeah. I haven't made it very far in that game, but it's one that I do. I even bought it, the HD version, because I was so excited.

It's just, dude, part of the problem is it's like freaking 50 hours long.

Yes. Yes. That does make a big difference. Yeah. Yeah.

One, it's, it's It's good, but it's not 50 hours long good.

Okay. Okay. All right. So the next game on my list is, I don't even know how to preface that, is Hyper Light Drifter. Because Hyper Light Drifter communicates without words. Uh, no one talks in the game, but you can feel so much about The struggle that the main character is going through, the hostility of the world in general, the desolation of the world, and the different characters that are in it. So that when you see shreds of humanity, of people trying to help each other, that really is striking in this world.

Yeah.

Even while it has like this neo Uh, you know, almost like, almost like a, uh, not steampunk, uh, but almost like a Blade Runner-esque color scheme.

It's not, yeah, it's like the, the palette is very like cyberpunk.

Yes. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes. But, but it's also like lush, uh, trees and mountains and things like that, you know? Um, and I say lush while also talking about the desolation of the world. So, If you've played the game, you know what I mean. Um, but it is one again where the gameplay I feel like is, is certainly a part of it as well. I really enjoy this game, but I do think it's a, it's a good art piece as well. So that's what makes it to my list. There we go.

Um, I think the next poll I'm going to is like, and this is pretty high up for me, is like, I think The Last of Us is one of those games where Um, you know, it's funny, like, I, I saw this— it was specifically talking about The Last of Us Part II, but, um, somebody said like The Last of Us Part II is like the Schindler's List of video games. Like, I'm glad I played it, I did not have fun.

Yeah.

And yeah, I'm just like, The Last of Us actually is like sort of like— I, I do feel like The original Last of Us is sort of very gamey in a lot of ways. Um, and I haven't played Last of Us 2 or else that, but I also think too, like, one of those things is like that the longer I've sat with this game and sat back from it and sort of chewed on it and, and read things on it, it's like the more I realized that my initial analysis was like way off. Um, like I made assumptions about characters in the game and what the game was actually saying that I think I was, I was really wrong about, like, you know, and, um, I kind of like that. I like that, like, because, like, the, the game does some things, like, it appeals. There are decisions that the, some of the main characters make that appeal to me as a human being, but, like, you know, the, the further out, like, the more you remove yourself from, you're like, no, that was actually really heinous. Why, why would they do that? And I think there's something interesting in there. Um, so yeah, that's—

So are you putting both games together as a package then?

No.

Um, is it just based off the conclusions of the second game that reframes the first game?

Dude, I think it's there in the first game. I think you just have to be paying attention.

Like, yeah.

You know, and, and we can, I guess, like, you know, the— oh dude, like, spoilers if you do not want this ruined. I think Joel is the bad guy and he always was.

Well, that clearly the creators of the game believe that because Part 2 is the bitter pill that comes from the decisions of Part 1.

Because like, here's, here's, okay, like, here's the thing is like, yes, there are some revelations that like Ellie there were more kids than just Ellie. But like, the fact that like, it— dude, it's an inversion of what God the Father did, right?

Mm-hmm.

Where it's like— and I think it appeals to like, like, if that was my child or my sort of like foster child, like, yes, I would burn down the world to protect them. But like, Ellie was going knowing— like, she kind of like And again, she doesn't— I don't know that she ever explicitly sort of like spells it out, but I think she knew what was waiting for her, what was in store, or what possibly could be in store. And like, and I'm not saying like, it's kind of definitely a situation where there's like, it's like villains the whole way down.

Yeah.

But like, the fact that like Ellie put herself on that, that track was making a conscious decision about like, and I think that like, She does communicate throughout that game that, like, she knew that that was an option. And then Joel's like, no, you don't get to make this decision. I don't want to feel this kind of pain again, and I'm going to burn down the world to preserve my happiness. And I think, like, that's— I think, like, it's an inversion of, like, sort of, like, just, like, the sending of Christ.

Yeah.

Where it's like you have like the willing sacrifice, but like instead of saving the world, Joel's content to like burn it down. And so, and like I said, I think it's like it takes a— I think it's there in the first one. It just takes— it's not an easy thing to get on because like I think that's— and again, this is where like it's the emotion. Like you're sort of riding along with these people. You're—

Yeah.

you're sort of in a limited capacity, like you're becoming more— you care about both of them way more towards the end of the game. And so I just think that, yeah. And so, yeah.

I'm not, I'm not here to, to argue, you know, that's not the point of this episode, saying, saying these are games. I do think they intentionally Um, make the lines very gray because of the things that you said, like, oh, well, she— how much did she actually know? Um, the whole beginning of the game and framing Joel as someone who lost a child. Um, the whole, the whole circumstance of the world in which you couldn't just slow down and have a conversation. Like, no, it's either kill or be killed. Yeah, like it doesn't give any options for, uh, it's either— yeah, it's literally either she dies under possibly false pretenses. So I think they do make it grayer than— like, I think it would be a lot easier to accept what you're saying, uh, if things were not as gray in this world.

I—

Because I don't think Joel was just out for himself. I think he was trying to protect her.

I think at the end he gets there.

Yeah.

And it's out of more— yeah, I agree with you. I think at the end, like, he legitimately cares about her. But like I said, I think it's a bit of an inversion of like—

Yeah. Was that the— well, but that— I think that's actually where it's the most different, is that Christ willingly sacrificed himself. I think Ellie didn't willingly sacrifice herself. I think didn't know what was going— she didn't know what was going on.

I think she did. I think she absolutely did.

You've played the game. I haven't. So I, I'll take your word for that.

I think she absolutely did. Like the more I go back and like think about it, I'm like, I think that she's sort of like hinting at things to Joel throughout the game. But anyways, yeah, that's, that's one that like, yeah, I, I definitely want to go back and sort of like play it, play it again.

Yeah.

Um, Landry, Landry Smith from, uh, from the Big Cast with Jake. Like, I want to get him on here, um, to talk about that because like, he— that's like, that's like his favorite game of all time and he's played it like multiple times. And so like, but, but yeah.

Yeah. So that willing sacrifice motif also, um, especially, uh, what comes to mind, what comes to mind for me are female characters that willingly give themselves or are on a mission to willingly give themselves. I think that's a really powerful motif through I think of Final Fantasy X. I also think of Bravely Default. Um, like, I, I think it's really powerful when it shows up. Um, but yeah, like I said, I haven't played the game, so yeah, my analysis is incomplete, but cool. Awesome. The Last of Us. Okay. Next up on my list is a game that I know you haven't played. And so there's only so much that can be said about this game, but it is The Beginner's Guide.

Hmm.

This is the second game, uh, by the creator of The Stanley Parable. This is a game about goodness. It's a game about playing other people's games and interpretation. It has lots of conversations about what what games mean, what they mean to certain people, how you can know, or if if it's even possible to understand what was in the mind of the creator when they created something, or if you're. reading into something. And it delves, it delves pretty deep into that in a way that, you know, halfway through the game kind of reframes the stuff. Um, there's an unreliable narrator. Sorry, just spoiled it for you, but that's part of it. Um, and then it takes that even further. Uh, it is not— it is like Stanley Parable. It is largely just a walking simulator. Okay. You open doors, you know, you press buttons. You do have some shooting sections, things like that, but that's not the point of the game. It is really more of an art piece about art, about the audience and the creator and how they communicate with each other. That— the game is really more about asking questions than it is really kind of answering things because the examples that they give you intentionally they, they heavily imply— it is very intentional— that they are not true, that this is not the correct answer for how art communicates. So, yeah, it's a good game, uh, and it's like 2 hours. So it's sort of like Stanley Parable, sort of, kind of, sort of, but it's— it is more direct Whereas Stanley Parable branches off into, oh, all these different possibilities. This one's like, no, there aren't multiple possibilities. You are walking through this one thing, but it opens up lots of questions that are just interesting to sit back and think about. So it's an art game about art.

Yeah, I, I figured that one was probably going to make a A bit of an appearance.

Nice.

Um, I'm just like, I think like there's no way that we can have a conversation like this. This is like, this is probably number 2 with a pretty big bullet in my— but it's Journey.

Um, okay.

I think Journey is one of the most interesting, like it does, it does, it pulls on a lot of different levers that I think sort of like get it the nod. Like the fact that there is that sort of that seamless, like, co-op and that you're constantly like sort of like, and sometimes you're playing with different people even when you think it's the same. So I think that's really interesting. And I know that it is really just kind of in a lot of ways a retelling of the hero's journey. Um, Mm-hmm. But I think it's sort of— I think that's a powerful theme, powerful narrative, you know, to sort of like pull on and sort of really just lean into the simplicity of that. I also think like visually it's just like a— it's a really cool looking game. It's got like some great— it's like, it's, it's very like, it does that weird thing where it like threads the needle where it's, it's very gamey. It's very enjoyable to play. But it's also like, there's— it's got like some really heavy moments where it kind of like, you know, swims up and bites you in the butt. And, um, yeah. And it's like, ultimately too, like, you know, I just love the, the sort of the theme of restoration. Like every time you sort of like finally fill out an area or you clear like a certain objective, like you're bringing life back to different areas. And I, I just— I always think that's kind of cool. So, yeah.

Yeah. Uh, I, this doesn't pertain to this game in particular, but I would be remiss if I didn't say it. Um, is that I'm surprised at how different our lists are. Um, I thought there was going to be a lot more overlap. Journey is my number 1 runner-up. And the only reason for that is because it's already on another list. It's on our Gaming 101 top 10 list.

Oh, daggone it.

And so, uh, that kind of throws that list for a loop. Because, because that was a simple—

well, that's going to make—

introduce people.

I totally like— I was looking at the other lists and I was like, I was like running the names. So I guess that makes that one really easy. That probably won't make our cut.

Okay. Okay. I mean, that's really— yeah, because I do— I agree with you. I do think it's a great piece of art. Um, and just a, a fun game to play through, but I think, yeah, it's sneaky in the way that it'll hit you. Um, so yeah, I like that game a lot. Um, okay. Next up on my list is another game that sneaks up on you and hits you pretty hard. It's Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons.

Mm.

This is a game that again, uh, can only be told through the medium of video games because you inhabit not one character, but two characters, each with one of your your sticks and controlling them is awkward and can be frustrating at times, especially when you need to be pretty particular, which is not very often, but sometimes it is. But you're in this fantastical world, your 2 brothers trying to search for your father. What's that?

Gets like escalates.

Yeah. Yeah, it gets pretty dark. But then what happens at the end And the way the game forces you to make decisions that you don't want to make, but ultimately turns those things around for the good, and the way that it communicates the bond between these 2 brothers, uh, knocked me on my butt when I played it. So it's a short little game, but it does one thing really cool. And that's, you know, communicate this bond.

Yeah, no, that's a— that is a good one. What number— what number are we on, Josh?

I've got 3 more left because Shadow of the Colossus was taken out. So yeah, I've shared—

Well, I think like right now we're just 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, like 11 or 12 at this point in time. I've got a couple more that I want to bring up, Um, and so like, we'll just kind of run through these. Uh, NieR: Automata. And I know that's on the community list, but like, listen, that list kind of sucks anyways. And this— this game deserves to be on a list that's kind of cool. But I think it's, it's one of those things where I appreciate like the stark, like the kind of like the minimalism Yeah, and it's not because like— that's just a really— the community list is a really weird list. Like everybody who looks at it is like, what?

Sure.

Because it's just weird. But I think so there's like the sort of like the really stark portrayal of like the post-apocalyptic sort of like survivors at the very, like, That's really kind of cool. The story and how it unfolds and like, just like the fact that it sort of dips in and out of several different like styles of gameplay and different genres. And it's like— and I, I think like you and I, when we talked about it as an episode, it's just like the fact is like it really is just in some ways like We were talking about Persona 3 and how Persona 3 is like a series of vignettes about just like death and sorrow and remorse and all the things that sort of surround death and grief, right?

Mm-hmm.

Um, NieR: Automata does the same thing, but it does it in a way that asks questions. Like, sort of, it takes the assumptions of a lot of existentialist sort of arguments and it sort of applies them in a very realistic kind of way. And it, and, and again, I think we, we've talked about that ending where it's like, ultimately, like, it's very dissatisfying for us as believers because it just says like, well, none of it really matters, but, uh, do your best anyways. And it's kind of like, dude, no. And, um, so I just think that that's It's like, it's one of those games that I, I think that, uh, in some ways, like, I've, I've seen some serious glazing for this game.

Mm-hmm.

Um, there's, there's a podcast I used to listen to where it was like they were like doing this like really weird project where they just, they would talk about video games and then they'd rank them and somehow NieR: Automata managed like the, like the 3 participants who were doing it, like they managed to get it like into the top 3 games of all time.

Okay.

Or like, and I was just like, no, no. Like, it's— I think it's great. I think it's a great game. I'm not sure it's like in the top 3 greatest games of all time, but it's like I said, I, I think there's some really interesting stuff there. Like it really And I, I also think like the fact that like he's like Yoko Taro has been playing with these themes through not just NieR, but through NieR Replicant, through the Drakengard games. Like he's been playing with this stuff and building out some of these ideas for a long time. And so like NieR, NieR: Automata is kind of the culmination of some of that work. And I think that it's a really, really cool thing.

Yeah.

really cool project. Um, so yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. NieR: Automata is on my list. Uh, it's very high on my list. Um, I think it is a fun game to play. Um, I would want the, the problem with it is that because of its, its, you know, anime origins is that some of the characters are scantily clad and it intentionally, um, draws your eyes to that face.

Well, and there's, there's a trophy for one of, one of them. It's like, you know, trying to see, um, uh, up the character's skirt.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They're like, and these are robots. There are no humans in this game. They're robots.

But that's, yeah, it's also like, yeah, it's the whole like skinnily classic sexy robots.

Yeah.

It's like, hey, you want to be weird and gross? Sick, dude.

Yeah. And, and it seems, you know, then you're introduced to another character and, oh, her clothes are like, they've been ripped off just because she's in this desolate land, you know, whatever. But it's just like, this is awkward. You know, it's awkward. Yeah. They're robots. No, it's just awkward. So, so that's, that's the problem with the game, but I think it's fun to play. Um, I think that it has a fantastic, uh, soundtrack. Absolutely, like, awesome soundtrack.

Dude, one of the best soundtracks in a video game.

Yeah.

Period.

Yeah.

Like, yeah, it's pretty awesome.

It, it goes in between, it has a number of different, uh, action styles throughout the game. It starts off with this shooter section. Like, I, it's a really cool game, but I think when it comes to, uh, being an art piece, It is, it is misleading because the first ending, it could— the game could have ended right there and it would have been your standard kind of big dumb action game, you know. Oh, you saved the world, great job. But then you play through it from a different perspective and it goes places that are way different. It shows you the other side of the coin, of other characters' motivations, of other things that are happening, and it does that each time you play it over. Again, it goes down a different route and you can, you can see other characters, you see what they're doing. And then it uses that sight that you have, that perspective that you have, to actually delve into these different, like you said, existential philosophies for a bunch of robots that are, you know, post-apocalyptic, really, when all of humanity has been wiped out. So who are they? You know, what are they doing? What's, what's even their purpose? purpose. Um, so it— and it shows you the futility of all of these existential philosophies, because all of the characters that it shows you their philosophy end up failing in what they attempt to do. And the game, you continue to play through it and play through it and play through it, and you continually fail. It's as if, you know, the end of, uh, Infinity War when Doctor Strange says, you know, I've been through a billion different worlds and this is the only way it can happen. You know, it's, it's as if you're playing through, you know, 20 different endings, but you never get something satisfying. The only satisfying ending was the one when you were totally reading the room wrong, when, when your perspective was, was totally jacked up. So anyways, Um, so while Outer Wilds, I think, ends up with the same conclusion of nihilism, but let's make the most of it while we have it. I think it's the same conclusion. I think NieR: Automata really looks that nihilism in the face a lot more than Outer Wilds does. And so I think it's more honest.

Yeah.

And I appreciate that a lot more. Um, and It gives you the option at the very end of the game to agree with its stated premise of, yes, it's futile, but let's do this together and let's make the most of it by offering to sacrifice your game save for other people. And you can make that sacrifice. And yes, it's hollow. Um, you know, ultimately, philosophically, it's hollow. It still allows you to do that. And I, I give it its flowers for it. So. Um, yeah, NieR: Automata is essentially top of the list for me. We'll talk about it when we get to the actual top of the list, but yeah. Yeah. Very, very, very artful game, um, in a way that is also disarming because you look at the box and you're like, really? Really? This is an art game? Yeah.

I think that it is that sort of like that. And you don't know, and that's the thing is Yoko Taro is such a weird cat that like you don't know how much of this is like intentional and how much of this is just like him being like just kind of a nut.

Yeah, because there are weird characters in this too, like a freaking robot train that just shows up for no reason, you know, and just, just wacky and weird.

He's not really a robot.

Okay, okay. But anyways, Yoko Taro is a Japanese eccentric in all of what that means.

Yeah, I mean, like, given the fact that he does all of his interviews with the weird, like, yeah, moon face.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Anyways.

Yep.

Uh, I'll share one. Yeah, because you shared NieR: Automata. Uh, next on my list is What Remains of Edith Finch.

That's on my list as well.

Awesome.

So awesome.

Um, yeah, this game, while it is another kind of, kind of walking simulator, it does actually do different things. Like it has different forms of playing the game, but largely it is kind of this idea of just moving, a one-button game. Um, but it tells a number of different stories. And by the end of the game, it makes you sit back and think. How much of these stories were true in the sense of the interpretation that the character had of these events, that you get to inhabit their memory of these events, how much of their interpretation actually affected the way that they, uh, lived the rest of their life. And so it teaches you that though Different people can have similar experiences. Their interpretation of those experiences affect them more than the actual experience itself. So one person can go through hardship and that can completely break them, and they can hate the world because they've had hardship, while another person may face the same hardship and recognize God's grace through that difficulty and be appreciative and thankful of the moments that they have where they no longer bear that type of burden. And this game actually exemplifies that, I think, really well.

Yeah. I also think that, uh, it's just a really striking game. Like each, there's like a very distinct sort of visual flavor to so many of the different, you know, like there's, there's the one, and it's one of my favorites where it's like they sort of tell it almost like in the comic book panel style. Um, I really like that one.

Yeah.

Um, and it, it, it's also like there's some just absolutely like devastating—

Yeah.

Oh yeah, yeah, it's dark because it's, it's just like it's about a bunch of tragedy. It's a family that just, like, yeah, can't sort of, like, escape tragedy. So, yeah, I think, yeah, What Remains of Edith Finch is, like, one of those things where it's like, gameplay-wise, there isn't a lot going on, but I think thematically and just sort of, like, the way that it kind of, like— there's a bit of subtlety too. Yeah. Where it's like, it's kind of like, They do such a good job of sort of delivering sometimes, like the story beats sometimes that you're like, no, I, it's, it's, it's always, it's kind of hard to parse out truth from reality a lot in that, that game. And that's kind of like, that's kind of rad.

Yeah. Yeah.

So yeah.

And I think that's actually a really good lesson to learn too, you know? So, um, awesome. Well, since, since we already talked NieR: Automata, then we're at, you know, kind of cresting the hill to the top of my list here. Um, and so I have to give it to Sonic the Hedgehog is definitely—

Okay.

You know what?

The podcast is done. Shut up, you idiot. Like you're dead to me. You're dead to me.

It's the blue hedgehog.

Spins.

Does he even spin in the first game? I don't know.

Yeah, he spins.

No, definitely, um, a game about digging a hole is the most philosophically rich game. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

I mean, that's an interesting— that's an interesting ad.

Um, but no, I thought I'd throw that in simply because of our conversation about it and oh, what it was, The Real Hole, the game that we played along the way, the friends that we made along the way. Uh, no, I'm, I'm, if you're interested in that game, we have a book club episode about that. Go listen to that one where it does get philosophical, but I do think it's kind of, um, nod and a wink from the creators of the game. I don't think it's anything more than that, even though you can have fun playing around in that sandbox. No, actually the real, so this would be number 2. Number 1 was, was NieR: Automata, but that's after taking Shadow of the Colossus out of there anyways. Uh, the last one that I want to bring to the table that I feel very strongly about is Silent Hill 2.

Hmm.

This is a game that, uh, said many, many times, dozens of times on this podcast, I did not enjoy playing this game. I have not played the remake, which I've heard is much better. Um, but I didn't enjoy the gameplay of the game. However, I think it communicated the, uh, internal dilemma, the internal struggle, the internal strife that a man who is grappling with his own decisions, his own horrible decisions, but also the things that led up to those horrible decisions and what that does to a person and the way that they feel inside, which is communicated through this dark and dingy Uh, and, and scary, you know, creepy town and, you know, uh, Triangle Head. And, and however, you know, I, I think the way that it communicates the things that these people have gone through is done really well, even if it's odd. And, and I was gonna say a little esoteric, but I, I think you do have to work for it to understand what's going on, where the— what this game is trying to say. Um, but I think once you do, uh, you realize how, how this game tries to grasp onto concepts and, and portray them visually, which I really appreciate.

Yeah, it's, it's kind of interesting in the sense that like that almost— it was kind of a— like Silent Hill 2 was a bit of a runner-up for me. I thought about it, but it is really— it's also really interesting that just how like You know, even sort of like low-hanging fruit here is that his reality is warped and twisted by his, his grief and his regret and his guilt. And it's like how those things actually sort of like change our perception because like, I, I think in some ways there's always the question is like, what is what he's experiencing real?

Mm-hmm.

Oh yeah. And that's, it's kind of like, yeah.

Yeah.

Um, it's one of those things where like the, the ambiguity, like even up to the end, it's like, what? Um, yeah, I don't, I had like a couple. I, I thought about maybe nominating Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, but I was like, kind of like, yeah, I think that game is like really interesting. I think it's clever more than artful. Um, I thought about doing Undertale, but like, I'm gonna be honest, like, I think Undertale is just like weird and I don't think it's very good.

Okay.

I know a lot of people really like that game and I'm just like, I got the platinum on it and I'm just like, oh wow. Okay. Yeah. It's not, it's not a super hard platinum, but I did get it and, uh, I just, I was like, it's fine. I don't know. It does do some interesting things, but yeah. So, but yeah, I don't have anything else to add to the list. So, um, okay.

Yeah. Some other just games that came up for Celeste came up a lot in, you know, as I was looking around and I get it. Um, I get it. The difficulty of the game and what the character's going through. I, that game has just soured in my mind. Um, particularly because the creator, which I know it doesn't Shouldn't really reflect on the game itself, but sorry, it does in my mind. So it's not there. Metal Gear Solid 2—it's it's pretty artful game. The things that it has to say are interesting, even if I didn't like the pacing of that game. Xenogears—I've heard—you know—definitely gets there. Shin Megami Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne—I think—has the same philosophical bent that you know if you were given the power to recreate the world, then what? By what law? would you rule the world? Um, is an interesting question. BioShock, I know lots of people consider that, um, as, as high art.

Oh, BioShock is a good one. Yeah.

Yeah. Um, and it's a great game, don't get me wrong. Uh, yeah, no, it's, it's great, it's great. Um, but it, it fell to a runner-up for me. Uh, Braid, because of the way that the time rewinding mechanic and the themes of the game go together really well. And then I've heard, but I have not played, I have not finished the game, Clair Obscur could be a part of this conversation as well. I just don't know because I have not had it spoiled. Yeah, there was something else, but I don't know.

Clair Obscur would probably be good. Like, you know, I think all of those, it's, it's kind of like Yeah. Clair Obscur. It's, I really like that game, but I, I kind of, and I think it's a, it's absolutely a devastatingly beautiful game, but I think one, like, I want you to play it so that we can have a conversation about it.

Yeah.

But like, 2, it's also just like, I, I don't know, man. I, I think the ending of that game is super, super, super weak. So, okay.

Okay. Gotcha. All right. Well, those are our games. Um, hopefully I was, I was writing these down correctly. Um, but what I, what I have for years was The Last Guardian or Ico, uh, Outer Wilds, Spec Ops: The Line, The Stanley Parable, Okami. Why did I write down the— did you bring up The Stanley Parable? Uh, crazy. Am I going crazy here?

I, I think I did. Okay. Or maybe I don't know. I just agreed with you. Okay. Because like, I was like, yeah, maybe that's what it is. So there we have 3 games that we both sort of like, NieR: Automata, What Remains of Edith Finch, and The Stanley Parable. Those are 3 games that we sort of, we both sort of brought to the table.

Okay.

And we kind of locked in on, um, yep, those are, those are definitely—

oh, why didn't I mention this earlier? This is just, this is runner-up, not, not, uh, I just forgot to mention it in my list, is Hellblade. That's another one that I think is done really well as a video game. Um, anyways, um, yeah, Stanley Parable, Okami, Last of Us, and Journey. But we're gonna knock Journey out, or do you want to put it on this list?

No, I think it's, I think it's I think Gaming 101, it's, it's like it better serves people there. Yeah.

Um, I, I know for me, um, kind of, well, I, I did rank the games, and so the ones at the bottom I don't mind, uh, letting go of with, you know, with a conversation here. Um, and at the bottom for me were That Dragon, Cancer and Dark Souls. Uh, Stanley Parable, it was after that, but we talked You know, um, if we both have Stanley Parable, then it probably should stay on the list. Uh, but how do you feel about— do you feel strongly about either that Dragon Cancer or Dark Souls?

I mean, I think Dark Souls is like— I get where you're going at. I think Dark Souls is kind of like the weakest out of that. Yeah. Um, like, yeah, that's sort of like the biggest reach. In a lot of ways. Um, like, I don't, I don't disagree with your analysis. I just think, like, I agree with you. I just think that, like, that's the one that feels like the, the least, um, sort of whatever. Like, I, I'm, I just kind of like, so like, Near, What Remains of Edith Finch, and The Stanley Parable. Like I said, I think those 3, 3 are locks.

Mm-hmm.

I'm kind of looking at this. I actually think, um, It's like some of it is like, I'm just kind of like, it's hard here because— Yeah.

Because I feel pretty strongly about the rest of my list. I think there's conversations that could be had. Obviously, that's what we're here to do. Hyper Light Drifter. I get that I did wait, you know, just enjoying the game. I didn't even talk about the music. I really liked the music in that game too. I, the actual enjoyment of the moment-to-moment gameplay probably, you know, is coloring my perception of the art of the game as well. Like, I do think it's still very well done, but I also recognize that, hey, I, I like it because it's also really fun to play. And so, uh, I, I won't mind if that, you know, falls off the list there. And then the Beginner's Guide, while I do feel very strongly about it, I also recognize that you haven't played it. And so if we can't, if it can't make it to the list, I'm not going to be heartbroken.

And that's like, like we have Stanley Parable on there, which it's like, and it's, so it's like, Um, like, I'm really like— so like, out of these, I, you know, just sort of like clarifying some stuff. Like, um, like, man. Ah.

So my, my thoughts on your list, I'll run through it real quick, is that again, I would lean towards, uh, Ico over The Last Guardian.

Yeah, I, I think I'd agree with that.

I don't mind that being at the bottom of the list. Like I said, I haven't played it, but I've heard really good things from people I, I very much respect. Outer Wilds, I, that only made runner-up for me. Um, again, I think it does a lot of, not does, I think it ends up the same place that NieR: Automata does. Um, and so in my mind, like, oh yeah, obviously keep NieR: Automata.

But part of the thing with Outer Wilds is like, it is sort of like one of those things that like in hindsight, like it drove me nuts, but like the, the sort of like that control scheme and the piloting the ship and everything else like that was that some of that stuff was just like so stinking masterful. where it was like, holy crap, this is, but yeah, I mean, thematically it's comparable and I think NieR does the better job thematically. I think like part of the distinguishment is that like, I think with Outer Wilds, like, it's like absolutely innovative.

Yes. Yeah. So yeah. Um, the question is whether or not that's enough to keep it on.

I don't know. Uh, I mean, we, we have to get rid of 4. Um, yeah, I mean, I, I hate to see that go, but yeah, I think that like Outer Wilds, like, yeah, we could pull that.

Okay. Um, willing to bump that down.

Um, okay.

I have to ask, you're, you're, uh, you talked about how Okami is primarily just visually striking. Is that enough to keep it on the list?

I think, I think it is. I think it's, it's one of those things where like, um, like, I think it's just like, it's It's one of those things where so often the chase for graphical fidelity is to make things more realistic. And it's like, this is a game that just leans wholeheartedly into style. And like I said, it's a Japanese folktale, essentially. But yeah, I— Mm-hmm. I think that like Okami is like just one of those things where it's like, because I think sometimes like just beauty is enough, you know?

Okay. With you saying that, I'm also taking a step back and looking at this list. Almost every other game is pretty dark. Yeah. Uh, just in themes, in themes, not, not necessarily visually. And so actually having a bright spot on here. Um, and it kind of makes me wonder if Xenoblade Chronicles 3—

Sometimes beauty is enough, my guy. Sometimes beauty is just enough. It's just, it's just there to be beautiful. Um, okay.

Okay. Um, personally, I would put Okami and Ico at the bottom. Um, but I'm not against keeping them on the list. Um, so 3, 4, 5. Yeah. So, so 2, at least what I'm looking at, 2 games have to go. Um, but I do still have Hyper Light Drifter. I have, uh, That Dragon, Cancer on here as well. How do you feel about those 2?

Did we, did we decide to cut Dark Souls?

Yes.

Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm fine with that. Um, that's not one that, like, even though I do think, yeah.

No. Yeah.

It's coming to it, but I, I, I totally get what you're saying.

So yeah.

Yeah. If I could, if I could just plug Xenoblade Chronicles 3 for a second, there are moments in that game that are very bright.

Yeah. I think like sometimes like too, it's like, yeah, sometimes beauty is enough. Like sometimes the hope that beauty sort of offers. Yeah. And just sort of like hints at is enough. Yeah.

Um, and I guess we'll see a lot of that with big dumb action games, frankly.

Um, yeah, but I think sometimes it's okay for like beauty to just sort of be a little more profound. Like, yeah.

Uh, yeah, it's, well, a lot of it too. A lot of art wrestles with the human condition.

Did we pull the beginner's guide?

And seeing the seal of brokenness. Uh, oh, I do still have that one on the list. But again, I'm willing to— we can take it off if you want to take it off. I would just highly recommend you play it.

Yeah, like, um, I'm just kind of—

Maybe you play it and then we come back and talk about it. But yeah, I've— if you haven't played it, then— which I know you haven't. So I'm just That leaves us with just one to get rid of, assuming we're keeping that Dragon Cancer and Hyper Light Drifter. So I don't know if you're looking at the same. Oh, sorry.

Yeah, like, so this is just sort of, and again, I haven't ranked them, but it's like, so we've got NieR, What Remains of Edith Finch, and The Stanley Parable. Like those 3 are, we're sort of like, I don't even think those, I mean, NieR has Definitely a case for being in the top 3. Yeah, it's like sort of like 1 or 2 with a bullet. Um, but then you have Silent Hill 2. Yep. That Dragon, Cancer, Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons, and Hyper Light Drifter. Yep. Man, that one's like— this is the thing, it's like I don't want to cut any of yours, but I don't want to cut any of mine either. This is like— this is the hard part. 'Cause like, I like what you, like, That Dragon, Cancer, I think kind of needs to be on the list because like it's heavy, but I don't know, man. But also like Hyper Light Drifter just kind of rules. And I think like, even though that game is like a little like grim, it is kind of like beautiful. Um, and just kind of like, ah.

Yeah, that's true. There's moments of levity.

Like, in some ways I look at this and Okami is like the weakest link, you know? Um, but it's also, like I said, like there's almost a part of me was like, hey, sometimes just like style is enough. Um, yeah. All right. Ah, dude, I don't know, man.

It is, it is very difficult.

Um, I would, I would say this. I think Hyper Light Drifter and That Dragon Cans are both sort of tackling similar things. Like, they're both looking at, like, sort of inevitable sort of defeat. Like, the Drifter in Hyper Light Drifter, like, is dying. They kind of allude to that, like, he's got some sort of, like, critical wound. And That Dragon, Cancer is more of like, it's a little more heart-wrenching because it's like, it's, you're, you're sort of experiencing this through like the lens of a father who's watching his son die. Um, and to that, like, I would give the nod, I think, to like That Dragon, Cancer, even though it's like—

Oh man. Okay.

Less of a game than Hyper Light Drifter because like Drifter is like fine. Like in the sense that like, it's, it's great. I love that game, but it's like, it's kind of like, it's a little like stoic and tropey in some ways, but I don't know. That's just like my initial thought, but like, I'm willing to hear.

So the other side of the coin for me is between the two, I would take off that Dragon Cancer simply because neither of us have played it.

I mean, I've played it. I've never beaten it.

Oh, okay, okay.

Like, I got like halfway through and it wrecked me. I was like, I can't do this.

Yeah, yeah.

I think that's a fair criteria too. Yeah, let's pull that Dragon Cancer. I think it's probably the more powerful one in some ways.

All right, then that gives us our list.

Now we just have to rank things. It's just where. Yeah. Okay. Looking at this.

Yeah. For me, just running through it, feel very strongly about Near and What Remains of Edith Finch.

I think that's, that's one that's pretty easily one and two.

Cool. Yeah, cool. Um, I mean, we could even put Stanley Parable as 3 since it was on both of our lists, but either way, if, if we put it farther down, I'm fine with that.

I think that's, that's fine. Okay.

Um, so then the next one—

Yeah, because those are the, those are the 3 that we agreed, we both agreed should be on the list. Um, so now it just kind of comes to Where— and I know that you said like The Last of Us and Ico down towards the bottom. I actually like—

No, like Okami and Ico was in my mind.

Okami. Oh, I actually think Spec Ops: The Line needs to be number 10. And the reason I'm saying that is because out of all the games on this list, that is— it is still kind of playable, but only if you owned a copy prior to—

Oh, wow. Oh, man.

Removed.

Okay. Okay. Gotcha.

So it's like, because it got delisted from PC stores, um, not too, too long ago. And yeah, I don't, I don't think it's— so yeah, I, I would just say like, I think that Spec Ops: The Line needs to be number 10.

Okay. Um, okay. Then would you go— well, again, I'm thinking Ico, Okami, but if you've got others that you think belong down there, I mean, even Hyper Light Drifter, since we had talked about it possibly being cut, I don't mind it. Really, I feel the strongest about Silent Hill 2 at this point, and then Brothers right after that.

But I think Silent Hill 2 is a great number 4. Okay. Um, I'd actually like to see The Last of Us at 5.

Cool.

Yeah.

Um, gets critical acclaim. I'm okay with that.

And it's like, dude, I, like I said, I think it's like one of those things where I'm just kind of like, Silent Hill 2 is number 4. Yeah, just putting this in. Uh, um, hey guys, I'm using AI to Like help keep this list together. Does that make me a bad man? I don't care. Okay. I'm just eco. Yeah. So we're at five. So like what we got to do is figure out six, seven, eight, and nine. Um, I think Brothers at 6 is fine. Okay. Uh, is that's a good place for it? Like Brothers is such a weird game. Uh, I do like, I just, it's, it's frustrating because like the whole like controlling 2 characters on, but like, and that game just gets unhinged. Like the further you get in that, you're like, what is going on?

Um, yeah. Yeah. Weird fairy tale stuff. Yeah.

So I think, so that's at 6. What does that leave? That leaves us with Okami, Last of Us.

No, Last of Us is 5.

Okami, Ico, Hyper Light Drifter.

And yeah. Yeah.

Um, I think Ico beats Okami. We could put I'd like Hyperlite and Eco are kind of like interchangeable. Like, like to me on the list, it's like I'm okay with having either one sort of. Okay. So yeah.

Then purely just out of, out of whatchamacallit, impact. you know, societal, cultural impact, then Eco can take it. Um, yeah, Eco is 7. Yep, Eco 7, Hyper Light is 8, Okami's 9, and Spec Ops is 10. There we go. Okay, there we go. We got it.

Hyper Light.

Yeah, so our final, our top 10 list of, uh, arguments as games as art. Um, it goes from the top. Our number 1 game is NieR: Automata. Uh, now actually, we didn't mention this before, but, uh, just NieR: Automata, it was on a previous list. It was on our community list. Since we're pulling it from that list and games can only be on one top 10 list, that does bump what was beneath NieR: Automata up, and that bumps, uh, The Elder Scrolls: Skyrim into number 10 on our community list. But back to our, our new list for top 10 games, games as art games. Number 1 is NieR: Automata. Number 2 is What Remains of Edith Finch. Number 3 is Stanley Parable. Number 4, Silent Hill 2. Number 5 is Last of Us. And you want to do the second half?

Sure. Uh, 6 is Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons. 7 is Ico. 8, Hyper Light Drifter. 9, Okami. And 10, Spec Ops: The Line. And you know what though? I know that we said that like this list was kind of heavy and grim and somewhat like overall overarching, but I think like, you know, and, and I think Okami still, that's, there's a good, um, I think argument for keeping it on the list just because again, I think that style is like one of the most, it's one of the most visually striking games I've ever played. But I think like, um, I think especially with like What Remains of Edith Finch, like, yes, there's some real heaviness in there, but there's some like just beautiful sequences and there's some like, it's kind of like one of those, like it really leans into the bittersweet. Um, and there's some really, uh, and even like NieR: Automata has like, even though it sort of ends on a note that feels kind of hollow, like there's, there's beauty in that game. Yeah. Not just weird pervy nonsense either.

Um, yeah, that's not beauty. Um, but yeah. And I think that's, I think that's true for, for a bunch of other games too. You mentioned it about Hyper Light Drifter, um, Brothers, I think does the same thing.

Very bittersweet, very bitter, but, um, yeah, it's like Okami is the one where it's just like, it's nothing but light. Everything else is like very shadowed. Like, yeah.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, you're literally like causing flowers to grow in Okami, you know, as opposed to, to these other games. So yeah, you're right. You're right. It's not as dark. And Stanley Parable is like, yeah, there's an undertone of Uneasiness, but really it's, it's a comedy game.

It's kind of quirky and it's funny and there is like a bit of lightheartedness to it that I think you can't sort of like get away from. So yeah. Yeah. Um, awesome.

Yeah. Yeah. Awesome, man. I think we've done what we set out to do. These are good arguments. And like I said, there's a, there's a ton of runner-up games, you know, that we already talked about, at least in passing. Uh, that we could, you know, even do episodes about as well. We do think that this medium of video game matters. Uh, we think that, uh, it does— it can display, like we just talked about, some very things that go to the core of the human condition, both at its darkest, um, but also some of the levity and light that you see as well. While these games don't particularly Um, give answers. Like, none of these are Christian games. Um, but I think they, they provide perspectives for us to, with a biblical worldview, um, chew on and, and, and think about and recognize that other people, uh, suffer through these things, you know, and wrestle through these things, but that we do actually have the answer.

Yeah.

That really the answer is our purpose is to glorify God, but the answer for all of what ails us is not found within ourselves, but it's found in Christ, and that's why we can take a look at these really dark things and still have hope, you know, even when we grieve, particularly in Scripture. This refers to people who've died, but when we grieve, we don't grieve like those who have no hope. We do have hope, and it's firm in Jesus Christ and his resurrection. So, um, yeah, I think, I think this is a good list. I think we've, uh, we've done it. By, by George, we've done it.

By gum.

Dadgum. Uh, anyways, before we take off, we do have another form to, uh, observe. That's the word, observe. And that is our shoutouts. We like to shout out our community because this isn't something we do by ourselves or alone. We also have some, some other guys with us. So who do you want to shout out, Nate?

Uh, I just wanted to shout out Mark and Fake Nate. Um, Mark, Markhead, Spike, the fake— the fakest of Nates. Um, the imposter Nate, the, the inferior Nate. Um, he had him on a recent episode of Quick Play and it was a really fun discussion.

Um, yeah, yeah.

I, you know, it kind of, it got me sort of going down some rabbit trails thinking about like just how we think about video games, which led to some other interesting sort of rabbit trails. But, um, I'm like, and just, it, it's one of those things where it's just a reminder that everybody comes to games like, and this is kind of like in some ways this is like, duh, like, yeah, that makes perfect sense. But like, everybody comes to games for different reasons with different expectations and with different sort of like hooks for them. Um, and again, it's, it's got me thinking about gamers' motivations and archetypes and everything else like that. So, um, but it was just like, because like, yeah, it was a good episode, good conversation. And, uh, I'd say it was a good job, but I don't want Fake Nate to get— feel good about himself. I just need him to feel inferior all the time.

Because he's faking Nate.

Because you're faking Nate.

No, I, I really, uh, I like that episode as well on, uh, unlockables and games and, and, yeah, you know, what our modern versions of that is. Yeah, yeah, it was— it's a good time. Go check out Quick Play.

It's just a shame he couldn't get a better guest to talk about that.

Ah, they, they— it was good. It was good. Uh, for my shout out, okay, we don't always do this for everyone who joins our Discord, but we did have a member, a new member in our Discord. That's Strider347. Yeah, welcome Strider. It's cool to have you here. The thing that, um, I wanted to highlight too, and the reason that you're getting a shout out is because when asked about how you found the podcast, you said you were just searching around for, you know, Christian content on video games and about Bravely Default in particular. And so it just— I just think it's really cool how things align. I was going to say the stars aligned. Obviously, we don't believe that the stars really have any effect on us in that way. The God is sovereign. Um, but it's— it was really cool just to hear that, hey, out of the blue, um, someone found us and joined the Discord. So welcome, it's great to have you. Uh, tell your friends, we'd love to, uh, we'd love to have tons more people, you know, join in. So welcome, Strider. Good dude. I did a little—

the little check. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Back to it then. Back to it then. But, uh, like, yeah, we've been kind of going at this for a while. Um, so I think it's, it's fine to just land the plane here, man, and just call it a night. Um, I'm tired. I think you're tired. And I know that I want to go to bed. So, all right, we have done the things, Josh. Um, If people want to get ahold of us, where can they do that?

Oh, that's right. Yeah, Discord, all that stuff. Our social media is available on our Linktree. That's just linktree.com/thebacklogbreakdown. Check that out.

Yeah. So until next time, guys, um, you know, be cool. Don't make it weird. And Josh, what else should they do?

Guys, keep beating down your backlogs and we'll keep breaking down the benefits.

Howdy folks, I'm Mark, host of the podcast called Quick Play, subtitled Short Talks About Video Games. It's a little bit of time each week to talk about something that we're into— video games. I bring on all sorts of smart, witty, talented guests to ask questions and make connections on trends in games, the industry, particular games themselves, anything that comes to mind. It's lean, green, and never really all that mean. And ultimately, it's a launch pad for you, you sweet little baby listener, you, to ask questions and make connections in your own conversations. If you just got here by Skipping 30 seconds ahead, then you'll love Quick Play. It's a little podcast trying to ask big questions. Listen wherever you listen to podcasts or watch on YouTube. See you there.

See you there.