resting (again) with joe thorn

Hey, loggers, welcome back to another bite sized episode of the Backlog Breakdown, where.

Today we're going to be doing something special, something. Since it's the end of Spooky season, as of this release, it's just a few more days until Reformation Day, until All Saints Day. And so we wanted to actually repackage a conversation that we had previously had with one of our guests, a pastor out of Illinois who is covered in tattoos, who loves metal and loves himself some horror as well.

So we wanted to.

It was just such a great conversation and, and we'd like for you guys to hear it, if you haven't before. It's years old at this point, but I think it's still relevant. And so listen to this. Wanted to give you a little heads up. So don't have video for it. We'll use just some placeholder images, stuff like that. But I think you're going to enjoy it. So take a listen to our conversation with Mr. Joe Thorne himself.

Welcome to the Backlog Breakdown, the podcast that explores video games and stewardship from a Christian perspective. My name is Josh Broccolo and I'm on staff at Austin Oaks Church in Austin, Texas.

And I'm Nate McKeever, Deacon at Trinity PCA in Western Pennsylvania.

And with us today, we have a special guest, Joe Thorne, the lead pastor of Redeemer Fellowship in St. Charles, Illinois.

Hey. Hey. Hey.

Was that familiar? Enough of an introduction?

For the record, I was against that. I was against the aping of Doc and Devo's opening.

Oh, is that what you did? Oh, I wasn't even paying that close of attention.

Good, good. We always put in a lot of effort. And I was like, don't do this. And he was like, I'm gonna do this. And I, you know, I'm just gonna go for it.

We'll do it. We always start the episode with some sort of, like, joke or. And usually it's terrible. It crashes, it burns. That's. That's just how we open up. And so my idea, since we have half of the Jofo with us here today, you know, we'd kind of go with that.

Well, I am happy to be on, man. Excited, excited. It's cool. And I did. Yeah, I wasn't. I wasn't aware that we have Baptist and Presbyterian. I love that. The two best versions of Protestantism. So.

I agree, I agree. I mean, we won't. We won't sort of go down the rabbit trail of saying which one's best.

But I don't mind. I don't mind because I'm. Listen, I'll be the first one to say it. Listen, I will be the one Baptist to say it. Presbyterians are older, smarter, more sophisticated brothers. We are the brother that lives in the trailer. We are, you know, wife beaters and cigarillos.

Yeah, but you guys are way more fun at parties than we are.

We are. Well, the reformed Baptists are anyways, not just bad.

I mean, I don't know if you. You probably don't remember this. You and I have actually interacted on Twitter one time, and I do a lot of lolling after things, and I said one point, at one point in time, and you read the tweet on Doc and Devo, and I basically said that you're one of a handful of Baptist that I really respect and admire and really enjoy what you have to say. And it's not to. It's not to like, blow smoke or anything, but, like, I think. Well, one. Yeah, he was blowing smoke at the time. I'm a little jealous, man. I don't get to smoke. Well, I could, but. Yeah, anyways, yeah, it would just. I'm. I'm in my home and yeah, I.

Can'T smoke in the house.

I. I could, but the, the fact is, like, it. I have a small house and so it kind of like, I'm just not willing to go down that road. But all I was going to say is that, you know, I really respect. Well, I really appreciate sort of what you guys are doing over at Doc and Devo, and I have for a while. And as much as people might give you guys grief for, like, the, the banter that you guys have in the beginning, I don't. And I think at one point in time I was listening and you and Jimmy were sort of mounting a bit of a defense for that. And you said that, like, what it really, like, it's friendship, that you guys are sort of like flexing friendship there and you're sort of like you're just being friends on the microphone. And I think that's a good thing to sort of put that on display and give people a little bit of an example of what that can look like. It's just like messing with each other, like. But at the same time, there's a deep seated, deep rooted affection between the two of you, and that that's communicated as well. And so I appreciate that. And you know, dude, I appreciate your friendliness with just Presbyterian circles in general. Was it Nick?

That's it.

That's it.

Yep. Yeah, that's my boy. We love Nick, man. Nick's been such a good friend. Yeah. When we started Doctrine and Devotion, there really wasn't a. A reformed podcast that was doing what a lot of us are doing now, where it was fun. There was lots of teaching, lots of preaching. But, like, the podcasts that I listen to are usually conversational. They're not Christian. And even though they go deep. And we thought like, well, we. I'd like to do a podcast for, like, reform Baptist, reform friendly people. What would set it apart? You know? And I thought, well, why don't we should just do what we do? Like, because when we started, people thought like, oh, you guys are doing a bit. No, that's what we're like at every grocery store, every pub, when we travel. Jimmy and I do that all the time. It annoys people. But that's just who we are. We're not trying to do something. That's just who we are. And so we really thought, well, we'll just. We're just going to do that and put as little prep as possible into each episode and just talk and. And really just what we want to do is encourage people. You know, we want to direct people to good Reformed theology resources. We're not scholars, right. You know, we're not. We're pastor theologians, but. But we're no Jim Renahan or Sam Renahan or Richard Barcelos. We're not those guys. Or Jordan. Jordan Stefaniak. Like, we're not. We don't have that level of scholarship. So we just like to point people to the basics, get them going in the right direction and. And have fun. And friendship was the thing in the book Content, Inc. Which is a book I read before we started the podcast, really said, like, find out what you want to do. And then what is the thing that sets you apart? What is the tilt that sets you apart from everything else in the field? And for us, it was what. What you were saying, Nate. It was friendship. Like, oh, this is what, like, friendship on display. Like, pastors are real people, and this is what some friends do and how they talk.

Well, and. And I think the other thing, too, again, just to sort of is like, that you guys don't do. You don't take yourselves too seriously, you know, and that, I think, is pretty uncommon in our circles. Yeah. You know, I don't want to be unkind in sort of my evaluation, but I think in reformed circles, we just kind of, like, we're a little uppity.

Right.

It can be a little, like, stiff. And I thought I've always been when I do listen, I, I mean, because like, I'm, I'm a pretty typical reformed and Presbyterian guy. Like, I'm listening to like Reform Forum and you know, that super esoteric weird stuff. I also listen to like a, a butt ton of video game podcasts. So I'm, I mean, like, I've got a really weird cross section, but I just, I think that even that has been. Was always really enjoyable and endearing. So just, you know, keep up what you guys are doing over there. So, I mean, not that, but we're not here to talk about that or we, we wanted to have you on to talk about horror, but somebody else kind of sniped sniped you on that. And I'm not gonna name names or sort of like throw too much shade out there.

Don't even reference them because people might listen. You don't want them listen to those jokers.

They know, like, they know that I'm a grumpy old fart. So. But we decided, so we did a little bit of a pivot and we thought it just, it would be good to have somebody like you with your pedigree, you know, and say what you will about you not being an academic. You're pretty sharp tack, dude, so don't sell yourself short.

But I've read your pamphlets.

Yeah, great. All three of them. Four of them. You know, I read Note to Self, you know, so. But, you know, you're pretty, pretty sharp tack. But we thought, and even listening to you talk to Logan and Micah a little bit about the value of entertainment in the Christian life, that's sort of actually like our wheelhouse. We hang out in that space. Like when Josh said the intersection of stewardship and video games, like that is actually kind of what we, you know, get into a lot. And I just, I thought it'd be interesting to sort of, you know, get a, a more fleshed out take on like just Joe Thorne recreation in general. Like give us like the, the 10,000 foot view.

Yeah, I think that's great. You know, the, that recreation is a necessary gift from God needs to be embraced. And I, I do believe that among lots of people, not just Christians, but I, I think it oftentimes is true of Christians. But anybody who works really hard or has a lot of responsibilities, some people have a, like rest and recreation. We really put those together. We feel guilty. A lot of us feel guilty. Like when we start, like, I'm not doing anything important right now. I'm not, I'm not achieving. I'M not building and we feel bad about it. Recreation is a good thing. It is a gift from God. In fact, it is a necessary thing for us as human beings, not just as Christians, but as. As human beings, as finite creatures made for God's glory, his pleasure, and for the good works he's laid before us. You can't always work. We're the rest. And part of is recreation. So I would think of rest as the larger category and then recognize subset within that. It may not be physical rest.

Right.

Because some people, you know, they're. They use their brain all day and they're. They're sedentary for their job. So their recreation or rest is a rest from their mind and it's an engagement of the body. Maybe they go rock climbing or bike riding or whatever they do. But yeah, I view any kind of recreation as a subset of rest that we desperately need. And usually I think the one, at least one of the problems that some of us face is that we. We look at something like restore recreation as a waste of time. And there's a sense of guilt that we start to feel like, why am I feeling. I'm feeling guilty right now? I should be doing. There's so many things to get done. I've got a thousand things to do. I only got 10 of them done today. How can I justify, you know, kicking back and, you know, opening a beer and, and, and playing, you know, Modern Warfare 2? Like, how is it yet? I don't know.

I don't know.

I don't know what ones.

Yeah, just. Yeah.

Did it just come out all right?

Yeah. You're up on it.

So it's, it's like we feel guilty. And what we have to recognize on that end is, no, this is important, and it's necessary for specific reasons. But there's also a way that we're supposed to approach it because other people essentially live for recreation. They try to. I mean, rest turns into sloth and laziness, and then they let recreation not serve the right purpose. Instead, they, they. They dwell in recreation. It's like they, they try to abide there. And, and in doing that, it's easy to then neglect the responsibilities that God has given us. So we've got to. It's not just about finding a balance, but it's about understanding the purpose of recreation, the use, and then how to best engage in that in ways that are, you know, lawful in. In the Reformed, biblical sense. Right. Lawful, meaning not contrary to God's word, but. But lawful and then helpful.

Yeah.

Like Part of the problem is that culturally we just have a bad relationship with recreation as a general rule. You know, one of the things I've quipped is that I. I think if Marx had sort of seen our present day sort of circumstances, I don't know if he would have said religion was the opiate of the masses or is the opioid of the masses. I think he would have like, leveled a finger at entertainment and basically the way, especially the way that here in the west we consume it and. Yeah, I mean, that's a. I mean, and even some of the categories you're, you're sort of talking about there as far as like rest and recreation and all that, some of those are things that we've, we've kind of debated about. And you even brought up sloth. And just to sort of give my pastor and my friend Jared a bit of a shout out, he's doing his dissertational work right now on Acadia, which is sloth. And that like the, the conversations that I've had with him in regards to that just, even the understanding there is like we, we just have a, a really poor view of labor of, of what vocation should be and is. And what recreation should be and, and it's. There is that idea. Like, you know, and I hate to lay the blame at anybody's feet, right. But I think in a lot of ways, like something like, you know, and, and this is not to like, you know, all due respect to, to John Piper, but, you know, there's Piper.

Calling out John Piper.

Go ahead.

No, I'm probably with you.

Well, the, the whole, you know, he'll say that he's a. A Christian hedonist, but no, it's like functionally you're more of an ascetic. You know, he sort of almost eschews the physical goods of this world. And it's because he has such a strong calling towards mission and encouraging people to be on mission. And that's.

Don't waste your life, bro.

Don't waste your life. And I think in some ways, and I wouldn't even accuse Piper of this, but I think a lot of, like when people read Don't Waste youe Life, they get into this, this mindset and I think coupled with this sort of the, the puritanical work ethic of the America of. In general that's been decoupled from the, the moral underpinning, right? So you have the Puritans who worked very hard, but they worked hard for the glory of God. And the little bit of reading that I've done in it shows that the Puritans also played pretty hard. They had a really, you know, I remember reading something actually fairly recently where somebody was like, if you look at the, the Puritans view of just, you know, sexual relationships, they were like the, the most, one of the most sex positive, you know, subcultures to sort of emerge. They had a high view of family, they, and they, they made good beer. And so even sort of using that, that sort of like a lot of times we use Puritan as a bit of a pejorative for somebody that's more of a, actually in a, a Victorian mindset. But I think like the whole thing is like we've got sort of, we, we exist in a culture that's sort of come off the rails and it's all work or all play and, and there's what we're really called to, you know, and I'm sort of using play as sort of, you know, shorthand for just rest in general. But what. There's, there's a rhythm or a balance that we're supposed to sort of find ourselves in. And a lot of times especially one of the errors that we see in, in our community, in our sort of like little corner of the Internet as far as like entertainment goes and video games go, is that every time a guy like Piper or desiring God or Challis will write an article about, you know, video games and Christians relationships, it's, it's, it's very like, well, you know, they're not immoral, you know, except for the ones that are right as far as content goes, but they're kind of just stupid. And it's almost to like ape the Mark Driscoll line. You know, it's where it's like video games aren't sinful, they're just stupid. And it's like. Well, do we say that? I mean if, because if you're being consistent, you can level that charge against almost any recreational field. Like you can.

Golf is more stupid.

I mean, I don't disagree with you.

I'm just using that logic, right? Like 18 holes, bro.

Yeah.

How long are you going to be walking around hitting a little ball on a rich man's. That's, you know what mean? Like we could level the same charges. The problem with Piper's view from, from my perspective is, is I agree with what you said and even when, and this is a perception, I don't know that he's necessarily teaching this, but the.

I wouldn't actually accuse him of this, but I Think his. What happens is people get a hold of his book and they sort of embrace that because I think.

I think it's there. I don't know. I don't know if it's his intention, but it's almost like, yeah, you can. You can even enjoy worldly things if in the moment, you're actually, you know, triumphing in the resurrection of Jesus in that moment. Like, if you. You can't just enjoy a video game as a good gift from God, meant to enjoy with gratitude, that's not enough. You have to be like, riveted with the supremacy of Christ in that moment. And I. Not only is that unrealistic, I don't think that's true. And so that. So that really falls into like, the radical Christian life. It's like the. What's the guy that wrote the horrible book on the Holy Spirit that everybody thought was great? Francis Chan. So it's like Francis Chan Crazy Love or Platts Radical. You know, these. This is. This is not Reformation or reformed thinking in that sense. And nor do I think it's.

It's.

It's very biblical. Not that it's completely decoupled from scripture, but that it really misses the point that God has called us to live for his glory in the ordinary, in the everyday. And that includes things like rest and recreation.

Yeah, yeah, I know, I know. Like with Piper in particular, he talks about having a wartime mindset. And while, like, again, it's. It's not entirely false, right? I mean, we are to war against principalities, powers. You know, there. There is spiritual warfare that's going on, but that also doesn't mean that we don't rest, right? That we find our rest in Christ and that, you know, like, we were created. That. That is a part of. And actually, you know, kind of my background is I. I just default to. I. I'm actually frustrated that I need to rest. I can be lazy, don't get me wrong. But. But especially with sleep, I'm frustrated that my body needs it. I would rather. I have all kinds of different interests, and I would rather be doing just about anything else than sleep. I enjoy it when I do sleep, but I wish that I didn't have to. And so, like, that's something that I've had to work on too, is like, well, bro, like, no, God created you to do this, and it's actually very unhealthy if you don't. And you need to take care of, you know, how God, like, you need to submit to the way that you have been Created the way that God has created you. So, I mean, that's a little. That's a little different. But you hold those things together, right, that. That we were created to rest, right? Yes, we're created to work, but there's this rhythm of work and rest that God has built into human experience. But also that's what he modeled for us right at the beginning. So, yeah, yes, we're at war, but that doesn't mean there aren't moments of.

Rest that need to be taken or joy and pleasure. Listen, I'm not in a war mindset, and. No, no, couples should be in a war mindset when. When a married couple's making love.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? Like, it's like. Like what? Like, so am I supposed to be thinking about Jesus in that moment? Like, no, you're supposed to enjoy the spouse that God gave you. You're supposed to enjoy that intimacy, be fully present in that. And then, yes, you are grateful to God for your spouse and for every good experience that you have with them. It's the gratitude. And that's what Calvin argues.

Right.

In his Institutes. Calvin argues that it's gratitude that grounds us so that we neither neglect nor abuse his worldly gifts. It's gratitude and thankfulness that. That encourages temperance. Not temperance movement, which is abstinence, which is. But temperance. Right, which is. Which is a moderate, good, healthy use of something.

You know, what was that in? What was that in?

It's in his institutes. But you can find it most easily in the gold. The golden booklet of the true Christian life, Crossway Reach.

The little golden book. Yeah, I'm working through that. I've been working through that for the last six months because Calvin's one of those guys. I read a paragraph and I'm like, well, there's enough here to chew on for three weeks.

Also, he was 20 when he wrote that. Oh my gosh, what am I doing with my life?

Well, it's a great little book, but.

I think there's something in there too, the receiving it with gratitude recently, and I know that you're probably not familiar with this, but there's this sort of like, undercurrent in sort of the games enthusiast space where there's like always, like the fans of gaming as a general role, we've been accused of being entitled and. And I think for the most part, some of the charges against some of the fandoms have been, you know, accurate. And they're sort of like, there's almost an embittered root. And I. And I was thinking about it today and it really is that we do not receive the good gift of video games with gratitude. Instead it becomes of like, what have you done for me lately? Kind of thing, or I'm owed this kind of thing. And that posture is, leads to, well, just dissatisfaction. I mean, that's, that's when the good thing becomes a God thing and like, it becomes the idol. And because you, you aren't meant to feed or you know, to sit at the feet at that thing, it ends up becoming sort of a poison.

Yeah.

And it's just a, you know, that's something I, I couldn't figure out why I was so sort of frustrated with like the, the fandom space. And then it was like in, in just thinking about this and even hearing you, you talk about. I'm like, oh no, this is exactly. It is because there's what, what should be the posture of sort of like, you know what? This is awesome. Like all this cool stuff that we have access to. And that's, you know, essentially, I mean, as Christians even, we don't necessarily look at it as a good gift from a kind father.

Right.

You know, it's just like, you know, well, we just, you know, our hearts are idle factories. So.

And we just, I just think about that like when I was a kid, you know, my blue collar house, you know, my dad did plumbing, heating, air conditioning, and we didn't have a lot of money, but we never wanted for anything. And, but Christmas was always an incredible surprise for me. And like I, every Christmas as a kid, I got the thing, like the thing. And one year I wanted Stomper Mountain. You guys are too young probably to know, but when I, when I was a little kid, these little cars, you put a double A battery in it, a little four by four and they would just go straight and you just play with them. And I wanted Stomper Mountain, which was just a brown styrofoam mountain that you would send your truck up and then it would hit the top and go through the bottom and do it over. You could do it again.

Nice.

So I wanted that thing so badly. And, and I, and, and I, I got it, I got it on Christmas day. And I was so thrilled. For whatever reason, that particular Christmas really stands out to me. And I was, I was so happy to have the gift. But it, but it wasn't lost on me. Like, wow, mom and dad got me this thing. Like they, they really, they got me something that I knew I really wanted. Like they, they love me enough to, to Give me something that I don't need. It's not going to make a difference in, you know, being a student or, you know, whatever, but it made, it made. It did make a difference in, in my appreciation of who they were. The good gifts of God are another means of, of growing in our appreciation for him. Because those, the, the gifts. When you're mindful of his gifts, like you become mindful of more of his gifts, and it's, you know, it's like, you know, for, for air, for water. It's like after. If you fast, after a period of fasting, you become very thankful for the little things, right? Yeah, for the little things that you've, for the food that you've. You've gone without. And then every other, you know, gift is just grace upon grace upon grace. I'm not a big gamer. I used to play games, but. But I'm not a. I'm not a gamer. I don't currently play any games and not for any particular reason other than my kids play. And I just don't. I don't know. But I enjoy film. I enjoy movies. And you know, late at night, whenever, before I go to bed, I usually watch something and have a cigar or four. And then, and then I go to bed and. But those two things, right, like, are like these great gifts. And when Spurgeon said that one time after Pentecost, you know, threw a little fit on his. At his pulpit and talking about the dangers of tobacco and the evils of tobacco, Spurgeon said, tonight I intend to go home and smoke a cigar to the glory of God. And like, I genuinely can say, like, my, my times of rest or recreation, like, I'm genuinely thankful for them. And I'm mind. I'm mindful of God. It doesn't mean that I'm thinking about God in the midst of a game or in the midst of a particular scene of a movie, but, you know, before and after it's. It's received as, as a gift. And that just makes a big difference.

That's good, man. That's good. You know, we're talking about recreation, and I like how you frame that as recreation as a form of rest, kind of a subset of rest. And kind of one of the things as I was, you know, just kind of picking this apart and like Nate said, when, you know, we kind of. This is kind of what we talk about all the time in different ways from different angles and things like that. But it does make me question, like, the different place. So if, if we have this this larger category of rest. How are we to fit in? You know, we said. We said recreation. I think that's a nice way. Not everyone would agree that video games are very recreational, but they're not, right. Exactly. But I think also in those categories, you can. Maybe it's just a similar term for the same thing, but you can think of things like hobbies and even as we've talked about already, entertainment and generally, I think when people talk about hobbies, they think of something that's a bit more productive. You know, like you're creating something a lot of the times with a hobby, whereas entertainment is much more passive. And generally we don't. We don't equate very much value to entertainment. It's more. Maybe this is just an American thing, but we kind of think of like turning your brain off and just, hey, entertain me right now. Do you find that there is any, I don't know, any kind of moral equivalency with any of those? Should they be in any kind of different order or. So long as we're thankful to God for them, do they all kind of have the same place?

Well, I think they, they. They will reap different benefits, But I do think that they all exist in the same space of rest. You know, recreation is simply not working and doing something for pleasure. That's all that recreation is. So that would apply to everything that you just talked about. And so I, I don't, you know, hobby. You know, if we're going to define hobby, and I don't know that I would, but if we're going to define hobby as something that is more constructive, that's great, that's great. But I don't think that that's necessarily better than somebody completely unplugging. It's like, you know, people. People will talk about, you know, escapism as if it's a bad thing. Oh, you're just reading. You're reading those Harry Potter books. Forget that they're satanic and evil, and you're probably going to invite a demon into your heart. But that's just escapism. Or, you know, it's like, oh, people. And, you know, my wife used to read a lot of English lit and English history, and she would just decide, like, no, I do that to escape. I do that to get out. And there's actually nothing wrong with, you know, if that's what you mean by escapism. Like, I'm escaping my current environment or my current, my current burdens and responsibilities for a. A designated period of time to Rest. That's great. That's. That's wonderful. You know, this is, this is what music does for us. Like music. Whether it's a worship song or the blues or jazz or Gothenburg metal, anyways, whatever it is, those songs elevate you above your current circumstances for a moment, for a period of time. Right now. It doesn't, it doesn't necessarily ignore those things. Sometimes it takes all of that into account, but it elevates you above them and you find rest. Rest for your mind, rest for your heart. That's. That's all good. So I, I just don't have a problem. I. I can't come up with a problem for things like video games or movies. Unless you are some sort of neonomian fundamentalist or something. Like you're making up laws. You're. You're. Yeah, you're creating extra rules and placing them upon. Upon people's backs. It's just, it's not the way of scripture. It's not the way of Jesus.

Yeah. Does that seem familiar at all though, when people try and justify those things, like justify their, I guess, way that they enjoy their recreation the most?

Yeah, I think so. I think, listen, I don't have to justify my recreation. Recreation itself is justified. It's the gift. I don't have to justify it. If I'm having to justify it, then I should maybe ask myself, do I. Am I doing something I shouldn't be doing for recreation? You know what I mean? So, you know, the. Like, if now again, if you're trying to explain to somebody who's challenging you on it, then they might say, oh, you're just justifying it. Like, no, you've asked me why I do it and why. Well, yeah, yeah, I think that's a little bit different. But yeah, I don't feel a need to justify. You know, other people say, like, do you have a hobby? And I really don't. And I don't know how I would have time for a hobby. I guess I could. I guess the last, the last two hours of every night I have time for a hobby. That's, that's my time. But what I tend to do is I have a cigar and, and I'll watch a movie or I'll be, I'll read, I'll work on a side project maybe. But yeah, I don't have to justify what it is, but I am finding rest because, you know, as, as, you know, people who are involved in ministry that brings with it unique burdens. And even outside of that, every family, every Christian that I know has significant burdens and afflictions in their life. Doesn't matter how much money they have, it doesn't matter how much education they've had. Everybody I know has significant burdens and are experiencing real sorrow, real loss, real suffering. And they need rest for their minds, for their bodies. They need rest. And that's going to take different forms and shapes. So long as it's lawful or, you know, biblically permissible, we should be able to do so with a clear conscience that honors God. It's only when, you know, we take the gift of God and then abuse it or misuse it or twist it that it becomes a problem.

Well, and you mentioned escapism, and a lot of the time and, and again, this is a topic that, like, Josh and I have sort of. We've had conversations surrounding that. And I actually worked at a GameStop for a while. It was sort of like one of those things where I needed a little bit of extra scratch. I liked video games. And so. And, you know, to sort of like escapism, I saw a lot of people using it like a drug.

Yeah.

And, you know, they, they sort of. And, and what those people really needed was to sort of like, actually step out of sort of Cloud nine or whatever imaginary world that they were submerging themselves, actually, like, put their feet on the ground and sort of like, they needed to knuckle down. They needed to sort of press in. Yeah, but that is. And, and our friend John actually, in. In our discord, sort of posited three, three what I thought were really helpful categories for interacting with this. And we've. We've talked really about the one that he thinks is the most useful.

He.

He referred to it as grace or gift that we receive with gratitude. But there are two other categories that a lot of people can approach. Just recreation in general, and it's as reward or as escape. And those in and of themselves, like, when used properly, are fine motivations or secondary motivations. But it's the fact of the matter is. And sort of even going back to sort of. One of the things we said originally is that part of the problem with Western culture is that it is so rooted in an abuse of those things. And so reward becomes the thing or escape becomes the thing. What. You know, if anything, what do you think? And I think we've maybe sort of talked about this, but how should Christians like, in. In particular endeavor to make sure that we aren't falling into the two erroneous categories?

Yeah, I think that gets to the Purpose of recreation, the way I think about it. And Richard Baxter in his Christian Directory, it's mammoth volume. And I know Richard Baxter had his theological problems, but a lot of his practical stuff was good. Some of it was whack. But anyway, in that I remember reading him on the. On recreation. And to summarize, what I took away from it was that recreation serves the purpose of refreshing us, mind, body and heart to get back to doing the things that God has called us to do. We're not called to live in a state of rest and recreation. We're called to work, to labor, to strive, to produce, to love, to serve. Think of all the things we're called to do. All the things God calls us to do can be wearisome. They. They take great effort, even if it's God supplying the grace, right? We strive according to his might, that he's mightily working within us. All of that is an output. Output. And so we're. I think it's helpful to think of our calling. What is our calling in life? And we have many callings, right? The great calling is to glorify God and enjoy him forever, as our smarter Presbyterian brother said in the Shorter Catechism. But then you can say, well, I'm also called in my vocation, right? I happen to be called to be a pastor, but I'm also called to be a husband and a father and a friend. All these things. Recreation is the opportunity to now, okay, step back, escape from those responsibilities for a short period of time to enjoy God's good gifts so that we can be refreshed, and then get back to what we're really called to do. And I know that guys like Driscoll and others are. We're trying to hit at that note. They just didn't have, I think, the theological categories or the. Or the nuance to actually do that. But, but that's. I think that's what they're getting at. You guys are not being responsible adults, and you need to be responsible adults and not live for your game. And you guys would absolutely agree with that. Of course, we don't live for the game, but the game is what helps us to live. Because the game is a form of recreation and rest. So it. The game is what fits me to get back to the labor, to go back into the coal mine. And that's. That's. That's my. That's my rest. That's my nap, right? That's. Whatever it is. That's what fits us. It's one of the things that Fits us to go back and. And do the hard work and I.

Think to the other. And. And I guess sort of one of the other things that we've talked about when we talk about this is that, you know, God in his kindness, does give us measures and safeguards, especially in the church and in our families and our friends. And like, we. We've talked. Josh and I have just even said, like, there have been times where he and I have played games. And it's like, I know that I've sort of crossed the line when my wife, who tends to be very patient with me, is like, you're playing that again. You know, and it's like, oh, well, okay, now it's time to sort of, like, put this down for a little bit, take a break, take a breather, reorient, reevaluate, maybe repent of, you know, playing too much and sort of get down to brass tacks and working again.

I know what you're saying, because I mean, like, look, we. We. You don't want to be neglectful, and it gets complicated. Listen, if you're a single dude, then, you know, you have the same challenge, like, don't neglect my responsibilities. But you have less responsibilities than if you are married and have kids. And. Because once you have kids and. And like, when I get home, it's not. It's not Joe time.

It's.

It's family time. Like, that's, like, that's. It needs to be. Anyways. It's supposed to be. So now I'm on, and I'm on in a different way. I've left one calling and I've stepped into another. And so, like, yeah, you've gotta. Like, our recreation has to be strategically placed in our lives because it's gotta. It's gotta exist in a healthy circle. Right. Or a healthy time frame. You got to find, like, when. When is this appropriate? Right? Because, you know, I. I remember there was a. A pastor that I knew really well. He was older than me, much older than me. And. And I remember, like, I would go over to his house and he would be watching the game. Like, that was one of the things he liked to do.

Yeah.

And. But when I talked to his kids when they were adults, years and years later, they were really frustrated that that dad was basically checked out when he got home. He got home, he's like, as I just killed myself serving the Lord, serving the church, and I get home and now, like, he wouldn't even hear them talking because he was so dialed into the game. And everybody that Happens to everybody, but, you know, here and there. But, like, that really did damage to the relationships there. They were. They were very frustrated by that because it's like, wow, we finally have dad, but we don't.

Yeah.

So, yeah, you've got to find the right sphere. I don't. I don't know what word I'm looking for. You know, I'm pulling an eight. I don't. I don't know what I want to say, but there's a word that. That. That would be appropriate for what I'm talking about. Like, where does your recreation rest in order to give you a good sense of. Of balance of all of your responsibility so that people aren't getting shortchanged?

Mm. Mm.

Yeah. Yeah, that's good. Generally, I think. I think it's 1/7 of your time should be in rest.

Right?

I mean, isn't that, like the hard and fast rule that everyone ought to follow?

I'm not following any of those rules.

No, he's appealing to the.

I know what he's appealing to, Joe.

He's the worst. He does this to me all the time.

He, like, sounds like a Bob Jones kind of a thing. I read the Bible. Work, work, work. Six. Rest. One. So it's 1 7th. Should always be 1 7th. So, like 1 7th of every day. I don't know what that would be. What's a seventh of 24?

Yeah, I think it's like three. Three something. Three and a half. Something like that.

Yeah.

I mean, well, again, I just. I don't like making those kind of rules, but.

I know, right?

I know, I know.

I think. I think sort of, while we have Jan here too, one of the categories of rest that we've been given is the Sabbath or the Lord's day. And I personally found the way that you defined Sabbath a few years ago, Joe, and I. Maybe you've changed or whatever, but, like, you really felt. And how. Rather than me trying to sort of rephrase it, how about you just say, like, when you look at Sabbath observance, what does that actually look like? And I think sort of one of the questions maybe, like, can things like watching a football game or smoking a cigar or playing video games be part of Sabbath observance? Or is that sort of a. Because that is part of. That's also part of the rest. That is actually our chief rest. And it's. I tend to be what I call a pretty soft Sabbatarian. I don't take exceptions to any of the. The standards. But I also don't Feel like I need to because when you and, but that's, I'm getting off track. But like as far as like Christians and video games on Sundays or the Lord's Day, what, Like, do you have any sort of insight there or.

I have opinions. I have opinions. I don't know if I have insights. By the way, I'm going to guess based on your use of the word button and the fact that you're a soft Sabbatarian, that you are a member of the pca.

I am.

I knew you weren't opc.

I'm a deacon in the pca.

If you were opc, you wouldn't be saying butt ton. I'll tell you that right now.

If I was in the opc, I probably wouldn't be doing this podcast.

Man, they're so fun. No, I, I love, I love some OPC guys and some of them just need to chill, man. Reformed Baptist boy. So many of them have been so culturally weird. That's why I was so grateful to find Jim Renahan, because he's a bow tie buttoned up dude. But he rolls with me and Jimmy has a great time, super fun, has a great time. We love him. He's just such a good model. Anywho, what were we talking about?

Opinions on Sabbath, Sabbath observation and video games.

Super easy.

My short take would be that in, in general, I'm a Sabbatarian in the sense that I do believe it's a creation ordinance. I do believe to keep the Sabbath, I think in the new covenant as God's people who are no longer under a national identity where we are in every tribe and tongue and nation and the people of God are gathered into these little societies called local churches, I think. And this, this is not original with me. This is more Meredith Klein, but I, I, I, I, I, I would say that we're called to keep the Sabbath. And the Sabbath that we keep is on the Lord's day and it is kept when we gather together under word and sacrament. That's how we keep the Sabbath. So I don't think It's a necessary 24 hour period of time in which we are keeping it. I, I think that it is a, it is a time when we gather together with the church for prayer, communion of the saints, hearing of the word, preaching of the word, administration of the sacraments, all of that. That's where we keep it. I don't know that you can keep it outside of that. So like, so it's like I'm not. So I would be a soft Sabbatarian. The Puritans wouldn't recognize me as a Sabbatarian because I would say recreation on the Lord's Day is a. Okay, no problem with it. But it doesn't take priority or place of the over or doesn't take priority over or the place of corporate worship. That's got to be first foremost.

That's.

That's central to the day.

Yeah, that is. It is. We talk about it at Redeemer all the time. The church where I'm a pastor, this is the Sunday is the most significant day of the week. The gathering of the church is the most significant event of every week. And it's not because it's a performance or because I'm talking. It's because that's when God's people gather together as one body, confessing one Lord, hearing the word of God, sharing in one spirit. Like it's the context in which revival is typically birthed. It is, it is. It is the best representation of the kingdom of God we have in any. At any one time is when we see the church gathered together. It's. It's that important. But outside of the. Outside of the Sabbath, outside of the gathering, then. Yeah. And so like. And I know that I am now. It's the one exception I have to the second London Confession because I. Because so in a sense I'm Sabbatarian because I still recognize like, no, keep the Sabbath. Yes. How do you keep it? That's where I differ. I think it's kept in the assembly. So I know that I am taking a breaking away from.

Historically. You're taking an exception. Yeah.

Yep.

And I mean, there are a lot of. A lot of guys who, like, if I had to, like, as. So as a deacon in the pca, I am ordained, but I haven't been examined by the Presbyterian. I was examined by my session and I did not declare any exceptions or exemptions because I don't have to. But I know that, like, if I were sort of to be ordained or installed as a. As a teaching elder, I would have to declare that as. Even though I don't necessarily think that that's what the WCF is actually addressing. I think that in. In. In the London Baptist and the Westminster both, it's. It's sort of actually a historical pushback against the. The Book of sports and the. That well. And that tradition anyways. But that's me being my own little weird headspace kind of stuff.

Right, right. Right.

So. But yeah, I. And yeah, I get it. It's like I. And I. I sort of. And actually, your. When. When you have talked about it in the past, that actually really helped me sort of kick off and wrestle with my own sort of Sabbath observances. And I was like, well, no, it does mean something. But, like, yeah, I. I think. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know where I was going with that, but it's like, I think I know guys sort of in my circles, like in the Presbyterian, the opc, the urc, the RPCNA and all that, who, like, won't even, like, go out and, like, play with their kids on a Sunday, you know, because they're worried about being Sabbath breakers. And I. And in so many ways, I'm like, man, like, I have. My wife and I are in the process of adopting, but my nieces and nephews, like, when I see them, you know, like, obviously, like, on Sundays, I'm like, yo, most important thing we can do today is, like, you know, go be with God's people. Hear the Word, receive the word, you know, and. And if the body, like, if. If we're given communion, if we're given the Lord's Supper, we, you know, we gladly participate in that if you're a communicant member, you know, of a God, you know, but. Yeah, I got a fence at table, man.

But.

But like, at the end of the day, too, it's like, you know, I think a good. You know, in my case, like, a good uncle or a good father, like, he loves his kids where they're at, like. Or he loves his nieces and his nephews where they're at. And even when we come. And in a way, we're almost imaging kind of the father to those kids in the way that, like, even though we come with all of our goofiness and all of our bustedness on Sundays, to be with his people, the Father rejoices in us, you know, And I don't know, I think there's something in there that I haven't always, like. I can't really put my finger on, but I think, like, watching a father play with his son, you know, or his daughter or, you know, again, like an uncle or even an older kid play with the younger kids, like, on Sunday, and just sort of, like, it's. There's something good in that, that I think a stricter, harsher observance of the Sabbath actually misses out on the heart of it. Yeah, the heart of it is, like, to be. To be with God's people, to hear his word, to be with his people, like, you know, the two primary sort of, like, emphasis on the Sabbath are fellowship and worship. Like, we're there to engage in corporate worship, but also to be there with the body, to be there in fellowship with our brothers and sisters. And sometimes, like, an easy way to fellowship is over games or.

Yeah.

Like, whether you're playing them or watching one on Sunday or. Yeah. And I mean, I know I'm getting into, like, dicey territory, but.

Well, the whole idea that people are afraid of breaking the Sabbath by playing a game, that really sounds pharisaical in mindset, right? Like, you're afraid. Like, like, bro, you're not living in the old covenant. Like, it. It really strikes me as odd now again, I. I mean, I don't want to break the Sabbath. Yeah. I don't want to break God's laws, but, like, this fear, like, well, I'm afraid if I do that, I'm going too far. Well, aren't you clear on it? Don't you know? Would it be breaking the Sabbath? Well, I don't know, but I don't want to do it. Like, what in the world. God's law is, I think, clear. It's. It's not ambiguous. We're told what to do. And so as I read it, I'm just convinced that God's people in the new covenant gather together on the Lord's day. They worship together. That's them keeping it. I just don't even know how realistic it is. When you are not a theocracy, how do you keep the Sabbath? How do. How can you actually do this so that there is no work whatsoever being done and that you are not employing anyone else under any circumstances outside of necessity and mercy? I mean, we could strive for it for sure. I mean, and I know, like, guys much smarter than me would argue for that. Much smarter than me would argue for that very thing.

Oh, yeah.

I just don't know. Like. So, okay, so then what's necessity? People working for the electric company. I suppose that's a necessity because we have to have electricity or we'll freeze to death. Okay, so we got to have heat. All right, so what else? Fire emergency, those. Okay, that's necessity. What about gas stations? Is that a necessity? It's a transient culture. People can't get anywhere without gas. I just. They're just. It gets really complicated, and I'm. I'm just not sure how realistic it is.

Now.

Just because I don't perceive it to be realistic doesn't mean that that's the reason to abandon it. I'M not a pragmatist, but it's just a troubling sort of question for me that I haven't found a good answer for.

Yeah, yeah. Especially as a pastor too. Right. Because you're not working on Sundays. Of course not. You know, there's no work put in there. You're resting.

And that would be, but that would be a, that would be a work of necessity. Necessity of God, you know, and I get that. I was a Sabbatarian for years and years, okay, A hard Sabbatarian. That, that was, that was my position. And, and I want that to be my position because I just want to be in agreement with the confession. I like things to be neat and simple. I like that. I like black and white. Easy peasy, lock it in. Done. And my conscience just says, as I'm reading scripture now, no, that is not right.

Well, I think, and even sort of. You said something there too about like you wanted to be black and white. And I think so much of even what Josh and I are sort of like that we wrestle with and trying to be. Because like, and I've called it this before, but we are doing the very unsexy work in a lot of ways of like, you know, we don't get into the hype train. We're not about playing video games all the time. Like when we really do sort of challenge and encourage, or we try to challenge and encourage our, our listeners to work hard, to work well, to earn their rest, but also to enjoy the good gifts that God has given them responsibly. And well, and so there, there's, and that's not fun because sometimes like, we're kind of the dudes in the middle, it feels like, and I don't know if Josh would necessarily, but we feel like we're the dudes in the middle who like everybody who wants to like the knee jerk reaction whenever, like I said, an article from Desiring God comes out saying video games are kind of a waste of time. They're freaking out. They're like posting, you know, John Piper, desiring God doesn't know anything, blah, you know, and it's like, and it's like, well, there's some legitimate critiques in there. So let's take, you know, let's take the critiques, maybe sort of do some self examination at the same time. We're looking at like desiring God and organizations like that. And we're saying you guys are kind of missing the forest for the trees here. Like you're drilling down on this one point and yes, can. Can video games or just recreation and entertainment in general sort of be a waste of time? Absolutely. But like, you know, and again, so could anything, given the, the proper circumstances, it's selective outrage. Yeah.

Selective. Yeah, it's like, okay, so you're. How are you not the, the grouchy old man yelling, get off my lawn. When, when that's your take. When, like, listen, man, there are, There are so many. Okay, so listen, I'm going to guess most of the people at Bethlehem are not struggling with video game addiction, but I am willing to bet that, that there are issues that they could be addressing that that would be maybe more dialed in. Now. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they just have a huge population of young people that love playing video games.

Playing Fortnite all the time, skipping church to play Fortnite.

Yeah, man, they're just stuck in their car playing Roblox on their phone or whatever, and they just can't get in. But it's like, it's just easy. It's like, it's like, you know, it's like talking about, talking about kids playing video games too much. Like, all right, they shouldn't do that. But the fact that they're so troubled about video games or whatever it is, like, whatever the, whatever the, the boogeyman is, it's going to take your kids away from Jesus. You know, it's. It's always, it's. It's always something that's rather, that's rather simple. It's like, okay, well, it's actually a much bigger the issue than that. And I'll tell you what, if you just tell your kids video games bad, don't play them a. You're, you're dooming your kid to, to push back against that because it is just unreasonable. You know, kids know the difference. Not always, but they oftentimes know the difference between, okay, mom and dad have safeguards for me, they got rules for me, I gotta follow them. But then there's, there's a point in which, like, the rules are so arbitrary and, and unreasonable that kids hate the rule. Now some kids will hate the rule if it is reasonable and fair. But, but in general, like, they have a justified sort of like outra. This is, this isn't even like you're denying something that is actually good. Doesn't mean that they should rebel against their parents. I'm just saying, like, it's not going to produce the fruit that you want as a parent and you're not dealing with the root issues. It's like hey, man, you gotta. You gotta stop. You gotta stop looking at porn. So here's some porn blocker I'm gonna put on your computer. Okay, that's fine.

That's.

That. That can be a helpful tool at a superficial level, but that's not dealing with heart issues.

Yeah.

So you've got to go into theology. You got to go into depth, and you got to look at the wide range of applications for dissatisfaction, lust and frustration and loneliness that feed into that sort of a problem.

And I think that's. That's sort of. Yeah, that's sort of where I was trying to get at is that we. We sort of want to make it very black and white, because the. The other option is to actually do the work, to wrestle with these things, to sort of, like, you know, navigate the nuance, if you will, and. And find, you know, maybe particular or personal solutions to these problems and. And to, like, again, like, you know, using the. The issue of, like, talking about porn. Porn blockers. Yes, absolutely. If a dude rolls up on me and he's like, hey, Nate, I want to talk to you. I need to, like, you know, just like, I. I mentor a couple of guys, and if one of them comes up on me and he's like, hey, I've really been struggling with this. I'm like, okay, like, you know, let's put covenant eyes on all your stuff or whatever. You know, let's. But at the end of the day, you really do have to sort of, like, talk about the stuff that's at the heart. You have to sort of be willing to go upstream a little bit and say, like, okay, dude, like, what. What is like. And. And even so much with, like, the. The sort of. The abuses with entertainment and recreation in general, like, the issue isn't to just be, like, decry them and say, oh, it's bad. It's a waste of time. It's like, actually, what's the motive further upstream? Like, what's the motive at the heart saying, like, no, this is actually the problem. Whether it's. You've bought into a false sort of bill of sale or sale bill of goods in sort of buying the cultural sort of definitions of all these things or the cultural expectations for what life should like or whatever it is. It's like, you have to be willing to sort of go in, dig up the filthy wells and, like, fill them in and put, you know, put. Basically put people on the right path and sort of like, confronting the error in meaningful ways. And that. That actually takes work that can, like, that's not going to just. That's not just like a rubber stamp, like, no, Pokemon is bad, like, or whatever bad like, it's like, no, this doesn't fix anything. This is just.

I don't know.

Right. Well, and some of that too is, you know, I recognize it's a good example that we're talking about porn, but porn is always sinful, right? Whereas video games are not. But I think we do also because we do, because we're kind of in the gaming space. We recognize that a lot of people are immature in the way that they deal with gaming in general, but we want to also interact and think through these things and acknowledge the ways in which video games have particular. The word that comes to mind is strongholds. But that sounds pretty churchy. I just mean ways that they, they. That they can. That they do play into addiction a bit more than something else. You know, there are certain elements, you know, the same way that, that social media is engineered to keep you there. Right. And you know, TV is the same way in different ways. You know, the same thing, but in different ways. We do want to acknowledge, you know, the pitfalls of gaming, the ways that. In which it tries to keep you, the ways in which it wants to be that idol in your heart. So. So, yeah, but it comes with each separate, you know, coming back here to the rest and recreation. Each separate type of recreation has its own kind of snares. And so we just want to go in with our eyes wide open, with our hands open to God, right? You know, saying, is this, you know, what you want from me? Can I enjoy this to the fullest, right? And not make it, put it above him, not create that idol, but actually have it as a grace, as a blessing in our life and then it can actually be rest. And I love Joe, how you were talking about just being with the people of God in worship on Sunday morning, as, you know, that, that picture of rest because, you know, that's, I imagine that's a lot of what it's going to be like in heaven, right? You know, when we come face to face, we're going to be with the people of God, Jesus's bride, you know, together with him finally in. In, you know, that realized sense. So, yeah, to think of that as your ultimate, your best rest, you know, I think is a great kind of place to. To land and then see that we can use these other things as. In a different way, not a spiritual rest, but in a way that we were created for rest. And this is another picture of that Is, is in these recreational things that like you said, again, kind of refuel ourselves, you know, to go out and do the work that God's called.

I think, you know, you were talking about pitfalls in various forms of recreation or entertainment is good because they do each sort of have their own. And then if you're talking about games, well, then different kinds of games will have different kinds of pitfalls. And then I think most importantly, different people are wired in such a way different from one another, that what might be a pitfall for one is not for another. Like if, like, how do you feel? What. What does it produce in you when you engage in your particular form of recreation or entertainment? What does it produce in you, whether that's music or game or movies? I love metal. I've been listening to. When I was six years old, I had a KISS poster on my wall, skulls on my shelf. I had the Destroyer album on my record player. I've always listened to rock and roll and then it turned into metal. And so I've always listened to metal. And to this day, my favorite music to listen to in 90 plus percent of the time, I'm listening to melodic death metal. That's just what I. All my books are written to metal.

Nice.

So all of my sermons are prepared. Listening to metal, if metal made me feel anxious or angry or whatever, I wouldn't engage. But the music, the particular bands that I listen to fill me with joy.

They've.

I feel bright, I feel alive, I feel good with the music. If I watch a great film, it's making me feel good, like I'm taking it in. Sometimes it makes you feel sad.

Right.

In an appropriate context of experience. A piece of art. Right. You're mourning. Yeah, in an appropriate sense. And I just recently tried to watch. Here's an example. I tried to watch a particular horror movie.

Okay.

I'm a big horror nerd horror fan and I was, I was looking forward to this particular movie. And you know, I, I read up on the actors I knew about the making of the movie. I know they're having fun. I turned it off at a certain point because of the way that they were depicting things. And, and for me, like, it wasn't necessarily a sinful thing that was being what they showed on the screen. It wasn't like nudity and sex. It wasn't something that I thought inherently was wrong, but it upset me.

Yeah.

And not, not in a way that would be appropriate. And I just thought like, wow, I really wanted to watch this. I'm out and I'm disappointed because I was really looking forward to this, and I paid the money for the stupid thing, but. But I'm out now because it's just.

Yeah.

You know, I mean, I'm old now and that maybe I've. Maybe I'm a little more sensitive than I used to be, which is a good thing, I think, in this case, where I, like, I'm not gonna just push through it. And I was telling my daughter, she's 21, she's also into horror. And I said, I turned it off. And she goes, oh, he didn't just want to skip past it. I'm like, no, I'm just out because I didn't like how it. I didn't like what it was doing to me. And so for that. For that reason alone, I'm out. Plus, I think at least it was questionable. Stupid. Oh, my gosh. I'm not gonna say what it was. I'll tell you off air.

Okay. Okay. I look forward to that. But actually, speaking of off air, you have been very gracious to give us your time here this evening, but our time is running short. But before we kind of sign off, do we have any final thoughts? Obviously, Joe, you're on Doctrine and Devotion. Nate and I highly recommend the podcast. We've talked about it a number of times on our podcast. It might have been a while since we mentioned it, but if you're not listening, go check out Doctrine and Devotion. Links for that are going to be in the description of this episode. Is there any other way? Do you want people to get a hold of you on Twitter? I know you're on Twitter all the time.

I heard you controversies. Love Twitter.

What's your favorite?

Twitter's the worst. I do. I scroll through it once or twice a day. I just kind of scroll through it to see what's going on. I don't post very much. I just like, just. Yeah, Christians. The Christians I see on there just. I here. You know what I don't like about it, I don't like. First of all, there are people with really bad thoughts and opinions. I don't like some of the attitudes that I see. But then, like, another problem is me. I see somebody, like somebody's hot take about a movie, and I immediately think they're so stupid. That movie. That movie is dumb. And they're talking like it's the best movie ever, or that movie was brilliant and they don't like it. So now I'm mad at them. That's a me problem. That's not a Them problem, they. They should be able to whatever hot take they want. I've got opinions on everything. Doesn't mean I'm right. Yeah, I don't, I don't like Twitter. I like. But I'm on it at Joe Thorne. I'm on Instagram at Joe Thorne, where I. And speaking about, like addictive or sticky social media, I love Tick Tock. I. Tick Tock is like, oh, you're part of the Chinese.

Chinese intelligence machine, dude.

Yeah, I know, I know. I, I just. It's the creativity and the humor that I, I see on that. Like the, the people, those young people creating funny stuff funnier than anything I'm seeing on any network TV show. Super funny stuff. So. Yeah, but I'm not making any content. I just watch it. You can find me on. You can find me on social.

Nice.

Nice. Awesome.

All right, well, before we sign off, do you have any final thoughts on. On rest? I think we've. I love how, you know, coming to, I say conclusions, you know, just kind of sharing thoughts on what rest is, how it's found ultimately in God. Right. Jesus is our Sabbath rest. You know, we won't go fully into that, but you know, just. And how we. We've been created for it as well as work. And as you know, we've talked about rest primarily tonight, but obviously work is, is a big part of our lives as well. It's just not what we're focusing on in this episode. So. No, I, I really appreciate it, but do you have any final thoughts before we sign off?

I guess just to repeat, like, God's made you, he's called you for some very specific things. He's laid out good works for you to do every day. That's not just pray. Read your Bible. It's shovel the drive, do your homework, you know, wash the dishes, you know, clean up after yourself, whatever it is. He's put a bunch of good works for you to do. You're called to a number of things. Fulfill your calling. And if you really want to fulfill your calling, you have to rest. So rest. Find. Find time to rest. Do something that's fun. Do it with others, you know, and, and praise God for it. Remain thankful, and I think you'll be safe.

Yeah.

Awesome.

Well, Joe, I just. Thanks so much for your time tonight. Thanks for the conversation, man. It was.

Thanks for having me on.

Pleasure.

So, yeah, it was a good time, but.

All right, Josh, I think, you know, well, until next time, you know, they know all the things, so until next time, what should they do? Josh.

Guys, keep beating down your backlogs and we'll keep breaking down the benef.

Sam.